Remake Ideas Revisited

[steel]

Getting somewhere again. The 2D interface is very quick to put together. While its not pretty and its all just filler at the moment, Ill chuck up a quick screenshot for those interested.

 

So things I lost (or are changing) and need to redo:

Networking

Universe Generation

Some of the GUI stuff needs to be rejigged to work with my new engine.

 

Sooner or later, Ill chuck together an editor again as Ill need to get someone to recreate the Universe.

 

 

 

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3766/74190727.png

[ScrubytheKid]

Hi there.

I'm new to the Forum.

I'm kinda an expierienced programer (but not games .. so that might not be that useful here), but if you really need help I will try to learn that aspect of programing.

Also if you still don't have someone todo it I hereby volunteer to remake your Galaxymap or if you have some other duties to handle I dont know like writing encyclopedia or stuff.

And (as everybody) I have some ideas to improve the gameplay .. Maybe you like some of them.

 

Lets take an approach through strenghts and weaknesses of SW-R to see which aspects are worth keeping and which should be changed.

 

 

STRENGHTS:

 

-Freedom of movement:

I'm no fan of this Tradelanestuff that EaW does. I think its horrible, for the few merrits it produces it limits you in to many aspects. It will always generate jukepoints on the map and makes a map nearly impossible to balance and Strategic Spacewar would somehow kinda feel like WW I: Build Fortresses on important positions, strengthen your frontlines, neglect defense of everything else.

As much as I value it as a strength the way its implemented in SW-R makes it a weakness too. It simply goes too far and puts the Defender in a hopeless position. I think thats a point that needs to be taken care of. Give the Defender a chance to do his job without getting the WW I kind of a thing.

-Characters:

The maybe most interessting aspect of the old game. Develop your characters, you grow attached to them, you "train" them in simple Missions to have them storm heavily fortified bastions and blow up a shield generator so you can bomb the shit out of those imps/rebels, Force training Missions are also very well thought of in that game you trade not having your best characters around for quite a long time for making them even stronger for maybe u later need em.

-The MessageSystem:

Those 2 helpful droids reminding you of everything thats going on in your Galaxy are priceless. But ofc it also could need some improvements. If someone here knows Hearts of Iron 2 it will be clear what I mean. For all the others: HoI 2 gives you the possibility whenever a meesage pops up to decide the importance of that kind of matter and what should be done automatically if such a message pops up. I don't allways need to be notified that a diplomacy- or an R&D Missions didnt produce Results. So maybe dispaly it in the messagelog but dont notify me. A planet of mine gets bombed? Notify me and bring me to the planet. Enemy saboteurs destroy my Shield Generator? Notify me, reduce gamespeed to a crawl and bring me to the planet so I can find a construction site thats close by and rebuild the bloody thing.

The important thing here is that the player can decide how he wants to react to different kinds of messages.

 

 

WEAKNESSES:

 

-Complete lack of Sensors:

Really, what did the developers think on that one?. If I want to know if there are ships incoming I have to run an Espionage Mission? Thats not only impractical, it makes it impossible to have some sort of relieable detection. Some Sensor buildings to warn me of incoming ships would be desperatly needed. (When they enter a certain distance to a Sensorphalanx they show up on my screen). It would also put a little more emphasis on speed. Maybe limit sensor info with distance (Sensor data gets clearer as fleet comes closer)

 

-Managment:

It's just horrible and everybody knows it.. . Too many windows and no tools to support you with the load of data. On a huge Galaxy setting it was simply impossible to keep your empire/New Republic working to a somewhat efficient lvl. There need to be improvements as Planetlists, Productionqueues, Fleetlists that actually contain some info besides the name, some sort of Window managment... and so forth and so on

 

-Transparency:

Hu? I'm besting the bloody rebels in all the core system and Needa goes traitor?

So how exactly do those detection values work? How many decoys do I need?

Is it better to send many weak decoys (like Commandos, droids) or is it better to send a few strong characters?

Generals, Admirals & Commanders strenghten my units. How? By how much? And is a higher leadership value better in this case or is this just for subduing & instigate uprising missions?

It is nice that units have a detection value of 30 .. but what does that actually mean? How does it translate to the character values?

All of these situations do happen all the time, noone knows why and they are annoying like hell, because of the fact that you don't know what exactly happened there.

Players should be informed about these things.

For example: in my opinion there should be an estimated chances of success on completing a mission (one number for reaching the goal, one for it not getting spoiled) based on the information you have about the System.

 

-Design Errors:

Here I just want to place some of the things that are really troublesome in SW-R but don't really fit a category:

Bombing a System 5x and jump away in the blink of an eye:

Every action should take its time: Jumping into the System - Moving up to the planet you want to bombard - get in Formation - Bombard - break Formation - leave Mass-shadow of the planet - Jump out of the System.

Packing and moving the Rebel HQ:

Basically the same thing. It should take some time to pack all this stuff and move it somewhere. Furthermore it should show up on Sensors if its moving (maybe as a medium sized fleet) Chaseing the RebelHQ is one of the most annoying things ever to achieve Victory as the Empire.

IMBA-Luke:

Luke becoming stronger by just meeting vader or the emperor is ridicilous. That needs to go.

Emperor.

Fighter Controls:

I hated it. I want the Bombers to stay in the ships in the beginning of the fight and i want to release them after my fighters secured fighter supremacy.

I should be able to tell my fighters to come back AND be able to send them out again. (if it was just me being an idiot and that is possible in SW-R someone plz tell me how)

 

 

I'm trying to remember the few lectures about game design I took at the beginning of my time at university and think of something else that might be important.. but for know thats all that comes to mind. Maybe there are some points in all that text that are of some value to you.

[Slocket]

Some good ideas. I need to keep in mind when I re code the Rebellion Remake project. I also did not like the bombard infinitely during one day then jump out. It will take limited time. One day per bombardment. Plus more detail planet action that all will love and really was missing from the original. Extra material to watch if you wish, or just leave it automatic summary as it was per planet. Trying to reduce the micromanagement, but allow you to get involved for extra fun or that personal touch.

 

Would it not be neat if your command ship did move around the galaxy? You as the player is actually part of the galaxy inhabitant and move around (King on a chess board). You can over see projects and such. But you may want to build the unique Super Star Destroyer, or Home One (whatever it is called for the Rebels Flag Ship) to protect you.

[DarthTex]

@Slocket: I know you're busy with the graphics of the game & coding such, but this is just a question regarding "game play" so I hope I don't distract you too much from your current task. Currently in the game, resources are generated by mines and refineries, and the "speed" at which these resources are produced are affected by the system loyalty (systems with 100% loyalty produce resources quicker than a system with 0% loyalty + garrison troops): basically an efficiency factor based on system loyalty. My question deals with "efficiency factors": do you think facility "age" should play a factor with efficiency? I just find it a bit strange that a shipyard (for example) can produce the same ship/fighter on day 1, as on day 2000 (given identical system loyalty & resource availability). I would think facilities should maybe have a "lifespan" (+/- some time from a base line), and then start requiring more "maintenance" to keep them going; maybe to the point of requiring twice the maintenance. At some point it would be more efficient to replace the facility with another (or upgraded version) to get the efficency back up. This adds quite a bit of micro-managing to the industrial aspect of the game, but it has been done in other games. When I get far along into a game and have a good portion of control of the galaxy, I usually turn production management over to the AI and concentrate on the game. After awhile, I have so many resources stockpiled, it just makes things ... anti-climatic/unrealistic. I could have a 100 shipyards (from Day 1) outproduce the enemy even though they have 40 advanced shipyards all produced in the last week; it just doesn't "add" some uncertainty to the game that you could still lose. Innovation/modern facilities can always outpace larger older facilities: it's all about efficiency. Maybe there should be an "age efficiency" added to anything manufactured: an X-wing produced on day 1 shouldn't be equal to an X-wing produced on day 2000 (theoretically it's possible, but that's stagnant thinking: in my opinion).

 

What do you think? Anybody else have an opinion, I'm curious to know what others think?

[Slocket]

@Slocket: I know you're busy with the graphics of the game & coding such, but this is just a question regarding "game play" so I hope I don't distract you too much from your current task. Currently in the game, resources are generated by mines and refineries, and the "speed" at which these resources are produced are affected by the system loyalty (systems with 100% loyalty produce resources quicker than a system with 0% loyalty + garrison troops): basically an efficiency factor based on system loyalty. My question deals with "efficiency factors": do you think facility "age" should play a factor with efficiency? I just find it a bit strange that a shipyard (for example) can produce the same ship/fighter on day 1, as on day 2000 (given identical system loyalty & resource availability). I would think facilities should maybe have a "lifespan" (+/- some time from a base line), and then start requiring more "maintenance" to keep them going; maybe to the point of requiring twice the maintenance. At some point it would be more efficient to replace the facility with another (or upgraded version) to get the efficiency back up. This adds quite a bit of micro-managing to the industrial aspect of the game, but it has been done in other games. When I get far along into a game and have a good portion of control of the galaxy, I usually turn production management over to the AI and concentrate on the game. After awhile, I have so many resources stockpiled, it just makes things ... anti-climatic/unrealistic. I could have a 100 shipyards (from Day 1) outproduce the enemy even though they have 40 advanced shipyards all produced in the last week; it just doesn't "add" some uncertainty to the game that you could still lose. Innovation/modern facilities can always outpace larger older facilities: it's all about efficiency. Maybe there should be an "age efficiency" added to anything manufactured: an X-wing produced on day 1 shouldn't be equal to an X-wing produced on day 2000 (theoretically it's possible, but that's stagnant thinking: in my opinion).

 

What do you think? Anybody else have an opinion, I'm curious to know what others think?

 

No for these reasons, but you do bring up a very good point that is going to be addressed. First, I want to reduce micromanagement and have a competent strategic AI that understands it. Second, Maintenance does keep things like new, so the age factor is part of the maintenance cost spread out over the average. Thirdly, as you show, the end game for the guy who owns most of the galaxy, is swimming in excess resources. That will change. Fourth, research is another "age factor" that takes time but makes things more efficient.

 

The vanilla game gave out too much generous mines, refineries, and maintenance points. This also makes sabotage mission of the economic variety rather a poor option. This game is about Rebellion, and the little guy needs a chance to fight back if he continues to play in a galaxy that you own 66% of. Else they will quit if human, or a non-cheating AI is nothing to beat at that point and it is boring.

 

In the remake, you will value all mines, refineries, and maintenance points. Harder to come by (stripped the galaxy bare). This makes sneaky Economic Sabotage Missions really hurt you especially if your the Rebels (good at this mission) hurting the Galactic Empire (big and bloated having a lot of maintenance cost). Additionally the more systems you own (modified by a bonus +- build up level and civilian happiness and loyalty and size etc) will cost you much more to maintain. Here is where the hidden age factor comes into play, the longer you play and if you are winning 66% plus, the more it cost you to hold on and maintain your huge mega Empire together. Then the enemy who has less own-age of the galaxy (plus a good bonus to building up what he does own to the max) can really hurt using economic sabotage on you rather than a frontal military assault that would end very badly.

 

Example is the real world. Big country versus little country. They use guerrilla warfare and economic sabotage to hurt the big guy. A direct military assault would be suicidal. As a game balance, the 'little country' will never win the game using economic warfare alone, that must be done military or diplomacy, but it does buy them valuable time to achieve those goals. Time to research a longer path to catch up to you. Example, *** gets the super Nuke. Now it is time to fight. (Death Star for Empire). "Rise of Nations" used this IIRC to end the game.

 

That will make the end game exciting, you will never know where the Rebels in this case are going to strike next, and you will be frustrated by all the nipping hit and run attacks ruining your giant perfect Empire, just like the theme in the movie. Lea talks to Vader in the opening sequence, the more he grasps the more it slips away. Additionally, you will be worried about the Rebel's super weapon coming to power if given enough time (Luke at the Master Jedi level?).. He may just come walking right into your throne room and snatching ol' Papy and Vader away just like the movie.

[DarthTex]

If there is one thing that slows down the game play, it's definitely micro-managing. Your version of handling the "age" factor for maintenance is a good simple way of covering that; definitely no micro-managing to worry about And having maintenance costs "creep up" as time goes by for the same items makes things abit more realistic. Although I worry that such a system might be a limitation on game play. If maintenance creeps up over time it could get to the point of controlling 66% of the galaxy could max out your control. That next 1% control (for a total of 67%) might cost you more maintenance then you would get from the 1% just controlled. Basically, at some point you might have to give up the idea of controlling the galaxy . I'm sure with just 50% control of the galaxy I could beat the AI, then why would I go and conquer more territory?

 

The micro-managing does solve some of these problems, by allowing "older" facilities to be replaced with "newer" facilities, thus reducing the maintenance "creep" for controlling so much. Maybe that could be an option for the Droids (if you still plan on using them)? Like the option to "Manage Production", there could be an option to "Manage Efficiency"; such that things would be replaced once their maintenance reaches some set threshold? If you don't want something replaced/updated, you can add the "Reserved" tag like that on facilities when using the Droids.

 

Just my two bits worth

[obgyn]

I am glad i stumbled onto this web site i have personally been working on my own version of star wars rebellion and as i read though this thread i saw allot of the same ideas i had since you all are much much farther along in the creation process and i have absolutely no programing skills what so ever i thought i would throw out some of my ideas that might help make the game more realistic

 

ok to start off i wanted to add elements from a few of my favorite games all into one the overview would look allot more like rome total war instead of cities its systems and you appoint a planetary governor same as total war which effects different aspects of that planet like corruption, spys, and tax revenue and instead of the planets being based on a set number of "power" slots the buildings are upgradable like any real life facility you don't build 2 airports right next to each other you expand them and each expansion takes longer and costs more resources and in the new facility Spaceport which will be the trade and commece hub of each planet and another new facility is industrial facility which is where the civilian population works creating trade goods which are then tradable creating more taxable trade goods

another change i wanted to add was golan space defense platforms the upsides are they are a static space defense allowing your fleets to go elsewhere and requiring a larger fleet to take take out the defense platforms prior to allowing a planetary bombardment the down side there very expensive to make and cannot move

 

one of the major changes i wanted to add was the ability for the rebellion to capture imperial craft for re-use later in just about every book there is a ship that is imperial in nature but was captured and in use for rebels (as for why the empire doesn't also have this ability i wrote it up as they believe everything imperial is superior and have no use for rebel scum and there castoff ships)

 

the other major change i wanted to implement was a technology specific tree if you have ever played hearts of iron 3 you'll see what i mean the ability to choose to research a specific piece of a capital ship ex. shield projectors or armor plating which of course increase maintenance cost as each new upgrade goes out till the new parts are installed if you want to go that way or the have to be next to a shipyard to update also big upgrade will require a ship being taken out of service and sent to a shipyard so they can be upgraded ex. increased size of hanger thicker armor plates installation of gravity well generator

 

another major change i was going to add was that the player was only able to upgrade there shipyards up to lv 5 after that the time and cost would be unrealistic so there for un-able to build at lv 5 they are able to build everything up to a super class star destroyer but not super weapons there are in the galaxy the major shipyards the famous ones from the books corrilia, bilbringi, kuat, sullust and fonder these shipyards are massive having taken many generations building up they start at lv 20 and cannot be upsized the reason is that at lv 20 they can produce super weapons and can build multiple ships at the same time these as in you can queue to build 3 imperial class star destroyers and choose to either build all three at the same time or to wait for an available slot and build something else and it starts right then not waiting in queue i set it up as empire starts with bilbringi at start and rebels have sullust but the other 3 are neutral and must be converted

 

i saw you had freighters added these i had the idea of being what is used to transfer trade goods and supplies to troops (and attackable ) along trade routes which is allot like the choke points you were talking about as your space port is increased in size the amount of trade routes it uses increases well along certain routes might be a good place for an interdictor cruiser to set up shop to hurt the opposition

 

i also wanted to include other factions but i had them set as neutral factions if attacked they will then go to war with your faction or can be converted to your faction through diplomacy (leia going to the Hapes cluster) i had a few already fleshed out but i don't have my notes with me right now so ill just throw em out to you

Hapes cluster if conquered minor economy boost but a high chance of rebellion if brought over with diplomacy as soon as they join you receive 9 imperial class star destroyers a major credit bonus and the ability to now build hapen battle dragons

this would help force people to try diplomacy rather then build a huge fleet and roflstomp the galaxy

Duskin league if brought over with diplomacy receive the black fleet and the ability to do a yevathian ship redesign changing the ships to Y class ex. Y class super star destroyer which in game numbers doubles the stats of offense defense and cuts drawback in half only problem is the bigger the ship the longer it takes to learn the redesign

 

one other thing i wanted to add was the speed up construction option by choosing this option you can spend credits to half the construction time left (empire also gets the ability that darth vader and emperor speeds all construction in there system just by there presence(the whole we shall double our efforts effect)

 

well these are just a few of my ideas if you like them please use them ill try to remember the rest as my notes are in mexico right now

[Slocket]

If there is one thing that slows down the game play, it's definitely micro-managing. Your version of handling the "age" factor for maintenance is a good simple way of covering that; definitely no micro-managing to worry about And having maintenance costs "creep up" as time goes by for the same items makes things abit more realistic. Although I worry that such a system might be a limitation on game play. If maintenance creeps up over time it could get to the point of controlling 66% of the galaxy could max out your control. That next 1% control (for a total of 67%) might cost you more maintenance then you would get from the 1% just controlled. Basically, at some point you might have to give up the idea of controlling the galaxy . I'm sure with just 50% control of the galaxy I could beat the AI, then why would I go and conquer more territory?

 

The micro-managing does solve some of these problems, by allowing "older" facilities to be replaced with "newer" facilities, thus reducing the maintenance "creep" for controlling so much. Maybe that could be an option for the Droids (if you still plan on using them)? Like the option to "Manage Production", there could be an option to "Manage Efficiency"; such that things would be replaced once their maintenance reaches some set threshold? If you don't want something replaced/updated, you can add the "Reserved" tag like that on facilities when using the Droids.

 

Just my two bits worth

 

Sorry for the delay response, hands full cleaning up after the flood in Midwest, Missouri River. Plus got sick for a time - nasty mold spores I think. Any way..

 

You will want to conquer the galaxy as one strategy to stop the rebels. The Rebels rely on superior technology that they will have and 'the' best fighters due to their open free philosophy. The Rebels will out research the Empire and win the game, or devote all their energy into their super weapon. So three ways to win (beyond of course capturing the goals), and each side has their advantages. Rebels good at research and sabotage, both sides have their super weapon, or take control of the entire galaxy. The Empire does not really win through technology so much per sey, but by their philosphy of complete control. Palpatine and Vader are obsessed with control, like in the whole galaxy.

 

Your agents come into play much more to get very good results. Empire uses it agents to capture Rebel researchers for example....Rebels do a sabotage mission on your special Death Star (AI/human player will do this for real now).

 

Indeed as said, auto-upgrade options for factories, etc through research to make more efficient....economic win condition helps to control galaxy..but all that spending may have your research suffer into making you super weapon say the SSD Eclipse, Death Star II, etc.

 

Lots of good points as these are important in making a decent game peeps will want to play (and attract more talented programmers and artist than me (I am an ammeter). I just need a few more years...

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

obgyn

 

" tax revenue and instead of the planets being based on a set number of "power" slots the buildings are upgradable like any real life facility " YES

 

"choke points " YES and NO, plain old hyper space between all planets is possible, just slower than main trade routes. Take your chances at getting caught if no spying or just 'Blockade Running' through.

 

"saw you had freighters added these i had the idea of being what is used to transfer trade goods and supplies to troops (and attackable ) along trade routes" YES

 

"i also wanted to include other factions but i had them" NOT yet maybe later in expansion

 

"one of the major changes i wanted to add was the ability for the rebellion to capture imperial craft for re-use later " MAYBE

 

"Hapes cluster " special bonus for control is a real possibility I would like to include. Veteran crew also.

 

"Special planets from lore." Good Idea Fondor and others ship yards. Plus other idea of Kessel prison planet with its *intelligence bonus* to agents so to speak. Think Gintmo Bay..

 

"one other thing i wanted to add was the speed up construction option by choosing this option you can spend credits to half the construction time left +++

 

(empire also gets the ability that darth vader and emperor speeds all construction in there system just by there presence(the whole we shall double our efforts effect) "

 

Well, NO; not by default because of game balance. good idea but for now it would not be realistic. But to change that in Optional game menu before start game. Plus Decaying Universe /New Resource random events can be toggled on/off. +++

 

If Vader/Palpatine are they physically present, maybe you get a speed up time. I will think about it. The negative result is they will not be able to recruit and must stay there until completed. Rebels may like that for an attack to capture them.

--------------------------------------

Other functions..send agent to Auto-mission of you choices so not have to baby sit them all the time. Spec Ops can be auto target systems of your choice. They do think for themselves to a point if you let them.

[DarthTex]

Indeed as said, auto-upgrade options for factories, etc through research to make more efficient....

Are you planning on have "multiple" levels of facility/defense upgrades (i.e. GenCore III? Advanced Construction Yard Mark II? etc)?

Are there incentives/limitations on advanced facilities? (i.e. you can only construct advanced ships, ISD III or Eclipse, from Advanced Shipyards - NOT the original shipyard facility)?

 

Just asking

[kirejara]

Hi,

 

just a small idea.

 

Give neutral planets with a training center milita regiments as defence (similar to the imperial/alliance fleet regiments). Once the planet has been "diplomated" to join one side, the milita regiments will be transformed into fleet regiments.

 

Maybe it is possible to do something similar with starfighters and shipyards?

[Slocket]

Indeed as said, auto-upgrade options for factories, etc through research to make more efficient....

Are you planning on have "multiple" levels of facility/defense upgrades (i.e. GenCore III? Advanced Construction Yard Mark II? etc)?

Are there incentives/limitations on advanced facilities? (i.e. you can only construct advanced ships, ISD III or Eclipse, from Advanced Shipyards - NOT the original shipyard facility)?

 

Just asking

 

 

Multi-level is easier to do. Yes.

 

Restrictions? I have not thought that out for game play. So far, only a bonus to have multi-level facility in time construction reduction 10% per level to level 5. One level 5 Ship yard can crank out a ship 0+10+20+30+40= 100% faster compared to five separate level 1 shipyards. Speed. Higher levels must be researched. Then you can upgrade your existing shipyard via a construction module.

 

I want to keep micro management down by not having hundreds of little one shot facilities all over the galaxy to keep track of.

 

A want an incentive to build fewer higher level facilities. Maybe to the point of having exclusive facility planets due to power restrictions. Planet only does one of Ship, Troop, or Construction. Not all.

[MrPhildevil]

You could also put specialised planets that are the sole producer or produce the ships faster. For example, Koensayr would be specialist of Y-Wings and K-Wings, Fresia would be specialist of X-Wings, Loronar Strike Cruiser, Bothawui for Bothan Cruiser, if available...

[Slocket]

It would add flavor to the game by having specialist planets for speed of production bonus. It would give variety so each planet would not be the same boring thing. Of course any planet could still make any ship to keep things balanced game wise.