Bunch of questions (Hooray!)

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

As the Empire, how can you compensate for the Rebels' wealth of diplomats early in the game? Entire sectors seem almost destined to fall to them. Coupled with the fact that the rebel base can be moved at any time, and can recruit more quickly, do people generally consider the Rebels as more fated to win?

How effective are the hook maneuvers in tactical mode? Some ships certainly have have weaker aft ratings if you could pull in behind them. But do the hook maneuvers work? Also, while they are executing the turn, do they fire on the ship? Is a ship able to fire from each side to its full rating if surrounded? I.E. would surrounding a ship be a bad idea because it would give them more opportunity to damage your fleet (by about 3 x for most capitals) or does the weapons recharge rate prohibit firing on more than one front simultaneously? How can one set waypoints in tactical mode? Again, when moving, can the ships attack? I hope to be ready to play online at some stage in the future. What speed do most people use?

When a fleet is in orbit around an enemy planet, is it guaranteed to see any characters on the surface? Only Ranking characters (generals, etc.) or non-espionage types? I'm pretty sure you never see ships/personnel in hyperspace transit without espionage. Also, I noticed that intel sometimes becomes randomly available without a message to acknowledge it. Is there any specific reason (cause) for this? I believe that a neutral planet that turns to your side will inform you of an incoming enemy fleet. Also, there seem to be a few enemy fleets visible that have no ships. Does this indicate a fleet possibly on its way, a fleet under construction, or nothing at all?

I have all the data from an old CD on my computer, but the CD itself is currently lost to me. Is there any way that has been developed that will allow me to punch up the game without the CD? Don't have Mdata or anything except what would be installed by a maximum install. Just got Alcohol 120 but I think I'd need to buy a new CD for that to work.

I would deeply appreciate any answer to these annoying questions. Since I want to play, but can't currently for the reason just mentioned, I'm sort of fixating on little game mechanics, running the game over and over through my head, like beach sand through a hand. I would answer these myself if I could. Sorry. Hope to play some of you soon!

[Master_Xan]

Ok, here we go:

1. There are many strategies for early Imperial expansion. They do start with some diplomats. But with their other characters, you can easily turn the tide of Alliance diplomacy. When you see a planet join the Rebels, you can guess they have a diplomat, or more, in that sector. It's usually fairly easy to do an espionage mission on neutral worlds; track down the diplomat and capture them. Take a few personnel to the planet in a fast ship, like a Carrack, to improve your odds of capturing them and reduce down time between failed missions. But it should be a cinch to grab them from missions to neutral worlds. In truth, you don't even have to capture them; simply disrupting their mission or injuring them will buy you time to catch up on diplomat numbers, or fleet strength.

 

Also, as soon as a planet turns, the AI will often send troops there. If you can bombard those troops before the planet's rating has gone too far to the Alliance, they will like you more, and may even return to neutrality, often affecting all other planets in the sector as well. If you have a ship that can get there before the enemy troops arrive, they can't get onto the surface because of your blockade. That makes it easier to try and catch a diplomat before they are protected. Just remember the enemy will send a fleet to break the blockade, so your time may be limited (depending on what they have available and how far away it is).

 

2. The Rebel base provides no real advantage. Imperial Coruscant gives a leadership bonus to everyone, so long as Palpy is there, but the Rebel base does nothing. Plus you can retake Coruscant, but the Rebel base is simply gone once you catch up to it. So it evens out. And you can usually track down the base by carefully observing fleet movements; the AI tends to have a substantial fleet presence in that system. You can easily send out a single ship, a fast one like a Carrack or Assault Transport, and have it wander around to find enemy planets in the Outer Rim. When you find an enemy planet, be sure to check it from time to time for the HQ, and since most players will group planets in a sector to facilitate defending them, you can check the other planets in the sector to see if they are newly-acquired enemy systems as well. Given a little time, it usually isn't too hard to track down (unless you are loosing and don't have resources to spare, and/or the galaxy is huge and you have a sneaky opponent).

 

Alternatively, take a fast ship, park it in the sector, and send out probe droids from that ship. Much faster than sending the droids from your systems across the map, with lower risk to your ship. Also faster than using just one ship to do all the searching, and cheaper than making many ships.

 

The Rebels can recruit more quickly, but the AI doesn't usually use all possible characters for recruitment. Even with human players, the Empire has an advantage to capturing enemy personnel (more combat types to catch them, more espionage types to find them, and more leadership types to bolster fleets, making enemy escape from blockaded planets less likely) and it comes out even.

 

3. I rarely use hook maneuvers. Most ships are too slow to make it effective, and faster ships are usually more adept at targeting fighters. That said, if you expect your opponent to flee, positioning your ships between them and their starting place means they have to run past you to escape. That can cost them...

 

Surrounding a ship has one MAJOR advantage. When you have, say, three ships, targeting one, they move into maximum range and open fire. As soon as ONE ship is in range, the formation stops. So the center ship will fire, while the two side ships may be out of range. This is especially true with large fleet battles, when there are seven or eight ships in a line. It also exemplifies the importance of grouping ships with the same range together, not just the same target. You have 0-9 to assign task groups, use them! and don't be afraid to separate off ships without a task group if you need to (just don't forget to update their orders as the battle progresses).

 

4. Ships do fire while moving. They can only fire at one target at a time (which is annoying, and doesn't make sense, but it is what it is).

 

5. I don't play online, so I can't help you there. :/

 

6. Fleets in orbit are NOT guaranteed to spot enemy characters on the surface. Not even if they are command personnel. They do get a chance to spot them. I'm not sure what determines their likelihood of seeing them though.

 

7. Sometimes incoming units show up without espionage being performed. You can get informant information, or if you have units present at the location where the ship/personnel left from, sometimes you will see their destination. If you find a production facility, you can sometimes see where it is sending completed units (though it may not show on the display, if you examine the facility you may find out). Occasionally, and I don't know why, your units will somehow learn of incoming fleets before they arrive, without any apparent cause. Usually only with a day or two before they arrive (making it useful to evacuate personnel, but not generally enough time for reinforcements to arrive ahead of the enemy).

 

8. Fleets with no ships can mean several things. You may have discovered there is a fleet there, but your people couldn't pin down what kind of ships, or their numbers. The fleet might be in transit. Or might have left. Or you might have known there was a fleet there, but the ships you knew about are gone, and now you don't know if there are any left or not. Or it might be a ship under construction.

 

9. If your CD is missing... well, the max install is not enough to run the game. It still checks for a CD. If the game is installed, you may be able to find a no-cd exe file somewhere. Try gamecopyworld.com

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

THANK YOU the answers! Just caved in and bought a new CD. Seems to me playing against somebody else would be at least twice as good as playing alone. One question left I'd like to confirm with someone: What speed do most people play on? I tend to play on very slow, speeding up whenever I'm done dealing with business for the turn, but I'm curious as to common practice in multiplayer. I'd be happy to play you, Master Xan, if you're ever up for it. I do want to know what speed I should get used to playing on, though.

 

 

"Surrounding a ship has one MAJOR advantage. When you have, say, three ships, targeting one, they move into maximum range and open fire. As soon as ONE ship is in range, the formation stops. So the center ship will fire, while the two side ships may be out of range. This is especially true with large fleet battles, when there are seven or eight ships in a line. It also exemplifies the importance of grouping ships with the same range together, not just the same target. You have 0-9 to assign task groups, use them! and don't be afraid to separate off ships without a task group if you need to (just don't forget to update their orders as the battle progresses)."

 

If ships can only fire at one ship on one side at a time, why is this advantageous? To protect the other ships/require them to move a little more if they want to target them? I also remember the orders being a bit hokey. I'll have to use Trial and Error for that stuff... One more question I guess I want to impose: How do you assign task groups? There are only four numbers at the top. Thank you for the assistance you've already provided. Oh! Also, what type of fighters do ships generally attack, can you instruct them to attack A-wings or B-wings first in any way? Would movement help (as they might target the nearest available ship)? I hope these Q&A's help future Newbs but that might not be the case.

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

So with surround they move continually to remain at maximum distance?

[Slocket]

The four slots are for four groups of fighters. Red , green, gold , blue group. Capital ship and fighters can both be assigned to attack only fighters or only capital ships. Capital ships have a hard time hitting fighters, but if the cap ships have lasers they hit more often than the capital ships turbolasers (which are too slow to target the fast fighter). You can think of it like a WWII game with cap ship are the carriers, and the fighters are the air planes.

[Master_Xan]

1. As I under stand it, with surround they will move continually to remain at maximum distance if the target moves out of range; but just like when they are set to "stand off," they won't move further back if the target moves towards them. A pity; it would make for interesting tactical strikes, using ships with fast reverse engines and long range staying too far away to be hit... but alas, I digress.

 

2. When you set them to surround, the task group will move to surround the target, with each vessel moving to its maximum range and opening fire. So instead of this:

 

...........Target..................

 

1.....2.....3.....4.....5.....6

 

With 1,2,5, and 6 possibly being out of range, you get something like this (differing ranges done on purpose):

 

.............2...........

 

.....1......T.........3

 

....4.......5.......6

 

With each ship surrounding the target and moving into the range for that ship. Surround will ensure each ship in the task group has the enemy target in it's envelope. Of course, this means when they switch targets, several of the ships in the group may have to significantly reposition themselves, depending on how tightly packed the enemy formation may be, and where the new target is. At the end of the day, it may be easier to break larger task groups down, or even give orders to individual ships. This just isn't always feasible in large battles, nor always necessary in small battles, and may be impossible in battles against humans (because it takes time to give orders to that many individual ships, and your opponent may not want to sit around and wait for you).

 

It should be noted; if your ships are set to surround, enemy ships will have an easier time targeting your vessels. That's because there is a lower chance of your vessels being out of enemy range when they (the enemy) is using stand off tactics. It will also take longer for some ships to retreat from surround (as they are further into the enemy formation and have further to go) and because your ships are moving towards the enemy line, they will be within range of slower enemy vessels sooner than they would be using stand off tactics.

 

That last point is very significant when some of your ships are quick moving and lack the firepower to stand up to enemy capital ships, like Carrack cruisers. They may end up on the "deep" end of the formation (like number 2 in the above diagram), and that means they will be in range of heavy hitters, like Mon Cal cruisers, before the Mon Cals can reach their real targets. While ships move into formation, they will take pot shots at any targets of opportunity; in this case, your poor Carrack would get pulverized by the oncoming Mon Cals, which would otherwise have never fired at the Carrack because it would have been in range at the same time as the Mon Cals' real target (like an ISD). If that makes sense. Simply put, surround tactics can make weaker vessels very vulnerable for a few moments to incoming fire they might otherwise not have taken.

 

3. Ah, task groups. These are not intuitive in Rebellion. Ctrl+# will set a new group, or reconfigure an existing group (if you use the number of one already in use). Just like most RTS games. Example: select three ISDs and press Ctrl 1. This assigns them to group 1. If you press 8 instead of 1, they are group 8, and that number will show up along the top of the screen. If there was already a group at 8, your new group replaces the old one, which is now numberless.

 

Selecting ships is the un-intuitive part. if you have a few ships selected, clicking one of them may not do what you think it would. You'll have to experiment using drag-click, shift+click, and ctrl+click to figure out how to select or deselect ships.

 

The task groups assigned by default may not be intelligent; sometimes a Carrack cruiser is grouped with ISDIIs and a SSD. That is a waste of the Carrack's speed, and any fight with that kind of firepower means the Carrack is likely useless against the powerful enemy capital ships. So reassign groups that don't make sense (group the Carrack in with a few Lancers, for instance, and have them hunt fighters together).

 

There are four potential groups for fighters. By default, the game groups these for you, and you can't reassign them. This is because each type of fighter, with four possible, gets its own slot. For instance, TIE fighters automatically get a different slot from TIE Bombers, etc. If you have fewer than all four types in a battle, it may assign one type to two slots. Example: if you have twelve squadrons of TIE fighters, it may set six in one slot, and six in another.

 

4. Auto targeting. Ah, how wonderful, and how dumb. Usually, when you set ships to attack capital ships, they automatically go for the most powerful enemy ship first, then the next, and so on. When targeting fighters, you get the same- ships automatically target one class of fighter, and focus on it till its gone, and then move on. To be honest, I'm not sure what the criteria is there, or what order the game uses to determine which to attack first. I suspect, just as conjecture, its the same as capital ships, and the game automatically targets the one with the highest AI value. Though ships may target bombers first (like Y-wings and B-wings) before targeting

 

AI Value is a numerical representation of how powerful the computer AI believes a vessel to be. Powerful ships have high AI values, causing the AI to build them first, if it can, and also determining when the computer will retreat from a fight. When you see the AI using a thousand of one type of ship and no other types, its because the AI value and cost of that ship are such that the computer picks that ship every time it runs the calculation to pick which ship to build. Which is not good in later stages of the game; the computer can end up with a thousand of one type of vessel and no fighters, for instance. But I digress. AI values are not editable in RebEd, but they are editable in SWREditor. That program is harder to find; if you want to view the AI values and/or edit them, let me know your email and I'll send you a copy (since you may not be able to find it on the 'net anymore). But SWRE is less user-friendly than RebEd, and it's only advantage is the AI value, so if you don't want to do that, you don't need it

 

So far as I know, you can't order ships to attack a certain type of fighter. Except editing the AI value, which isn't very helpful.

[Alzir]

4. Auto targeting. Ah, how wonderful, and how dumb. Usually, when you set ships to attack capital ships, they automatically go for the most powerful enemy ship first, then the next, and so on. When targeting fighters, you get the same- ships automatically target one class of fighter, and focus on it till its gone, and then move on. To be honest, I'm not sure what the criteria is there, or what order the game uses to determine which to attack first. I suspect, just as conjecture, its the same as capital ships, and the game automatically targets the one with the highest AI value. Though ships may target bombers first (like Y-wings and B-wings) before targeting

 

Just to add to that point, when you send your ships on Anti-Fighter duty, they always go for bombers first. They may fire at other ships while in transit to wherever you have your bombers, but there's no way that I've found to modify their target priority. I don't know which order they go for between B-Wings and Y-wings, as it's been a long time since I've seen a B-Wing, but the more powerful bomber is probably selected first. Likewise I'm not sure whether the rebels target tie defenders over tie bombers, but I think they still go for the bombers.

 

Regarding speed on multiplayer, I think it depends on your opponent. Over the years I've played mostly amongst real life friends, as well as my brother and sister (who's surprisingly good), and we generally tolerate any speed during the game, however I remember when the game was on the Zone that a lot of rooms had the title Medium speed only. I doubt anyone plays it on Fast, and while I'm sure the keenest players can cope with medium speed for most of the game, I normally play between medium and slow, as do the friends I play with. If you find anyone getting impatient with you, try and figure out what's slowing you up, but on the whole I'd say most people will show a lot more patience with new players, especially given the age of the game

 

If you fancy a game online sometime, I've recently got back into it again, and while I've had some experience versus friends, it's limited, and I'm probably quite close to your level given I only picked the game up again once every 3 or 4 years Send me a PM if interested.

[Master_Xan]

Ah, good to know Alzir. I thought that's how it worked, but I wasn't sure.

 

Also, I can't really play you online... I never have 4-5 hours at once to play like that. Sorry...

[Alzir]

Ahh no worries Xan, I figured there must be a reason you didn't play online given the length of time you've been about these forums I can usually manage a couple of hours here and there mind you, then pick up on it a day or two later (or every other weekend as it is with my usual sparring partner). I'd say you're at a much higher level though, as I just take a notion every few years to have a game, so probably not that good in the scheme of things. It's something I find amazing though, given the age of the game, that I keep coming back to it. No other game that age has stood up to the test of time, in terms of playability, and very few new games meet Supremacy's standard there either. Never understood why the developers didn't keep going with the concept, because it's such a good game for multiplayer.

 

I'm probably a lot closer to Rebelllllllll's level though, with the only difference being is that I have some experiece vs human players, and would happily find the time for a game if he wanted to give it a try online. Also, given the time of your posts Rebel I'm guessing you're in a Euro timezone, which would be a bonus, since I struggle if I'm looking for a game during the week

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

PM'd btw, Alzir. The messaging system on these forums doesn't really jump out at one. I'm not in the Eurozone, but my job only happens mid-day over here, so if you're ~5 hours behind, I should get off work around middle-late evening Euro-time.

 

A few more

Are there any eyewitness accounts of commanders doing anything for fighters? The results of a test here are rather disheartening. Also, in a game I played, I remember Bren Derlin really sucked it as a commander of several squadrons of X-wings and Y-wings on a planet surface.

 

As the Rebels, are you ever informed of Imperials discovering your base? Is it moved instantly or does it travel through hyperspace like fighter squadrons? Likewise, for the Imperials, what precise conditions must you meet to find it? I presume a reconnaisaince or espionage mission would suffice. But what about having a fleet over the system? Since you don't always see people on the surface, would a fleet necessarily detect the base?

 

I can't believe you wouldn't play online, Xan! It has to be so much more exciting than that deficient AI. If any one of the programmers here could rewrite the AI to make it better and more random (without just allowing the computer to produce more junk or knowing everything you do), they would be a hero... I'd throw five bucks their way.

 

Sincere thanks to those who took time to answer my questions so far. Too bad I unwittingly ordered my game via media mail

[Alzir]

Are there any eyewitness accounts of commanders doing anything for fighters? The results of a test here are rather disheartening. Also, in a game I played, I remember Bren Derlin really sucked it as a commander of several squadrons of X-wings and Y-wings on a planet surface.

 

I was a little confused by that thread as well, as it always seemed to me that commanders do have an effect, but I've never really tested it properly. Having said that, I don't believe the test they conducted was very extensive. Firstly, why do they give the empire a numerical advantage, as I would’ve thought you conduct a test with equal numbers but, that aside, I do find it interesting that 30 tie fighters can take out 24 x-wings even without a commander, since my recent experience suggests the victory would go to the rebels. I haven't played a long game for years though, so my experience recently has only been from the early game, and that could be the key point since the numbers on each side are much lower. For example I recall 6 x-wings vs 6 tie fighters recently resulting in only 1 or 2 x-wing losses, but their test makes me wonder whether there’s a critical point where the sheer number of tie fighters negates the effect of the X-wing shields. On a small scale, the rebel fighters seem to get at least one free shot at the tie fighters, since the shield absorbs the initial fire from the ties, and that free shot or two can take out a tie squadron. When fire does pass the rebel shields, the total damage potential from the imperial fighters has been much reduced, and it’s a downward spiral from there. At a medium level, with 30 ties on the field, it’s enough to immediately penetrate rebel shields and kill a squadron, which means from the start the downward spiral affects both sides, with rebels possibly never having enough to overcome the slight numeric advantage. If this was the case, then the commander effect they noted, of 1 or 2 extra kills, might actually show a more significant improvement than they concluded. I’m still surprised by the result though, and interested enough to try it myself.

 

Before drawing any overall conclusion though, I would conduct the experiment differently, including a small scale test, as well as medium, and also large. I would also explore the effect of commanders on the imperial side, since Vadar always seems to have an effect during a game, when set as commander – though again it’s hard to recall the circumstances.

 

As the Rebels, are you ever informed of Imperials discovering your base?

Likewise, for the Imperials, what precise conditions must you meet to find it? I presume a reconnaisaince or espionage mission would suffice. But what about having a fleet over the system? Since you don't always see people on the surface, would a fleet necessarily detect the base?

Assuming the rebel base is in the outer ring, then unless it’s been moved to a planet you’ve previously explored, the game doesn’t actually allow you to conduct an espionage mission there. That leaves recon probes or fleets if you want to explore it. Normally a recon mission to an occupied planet will fail which, in this case, would alert the Empire to the presence of a rebel presence there, but alert the rebels via a mission foiled message. I’ve never seen a recon mission succeed to the rebel base, but I can’t say for sure that that’s always the case. If you explore with a fleet, you will discover it though, as it’s effectively a facility on the planet, even taking up an energy slot.

 

Is it moved instantly or does it travel through hyperspace like fighter squadrons?

It moves through hyperspace like everything else.

 

 

Off now to try and find my PM inbox

[Master_Xan]

As Alzir noted, the base moves just like anything else, and is instantly spotted when any espionage mission succeeds, or any fleet gets into orbit (even if they loose a battle or retreat, if they visited the planet at all, you see the base).

 

Recon missions are seemingly random in what they tell you. If successful, you get I think everything but personnel information. If a recon mission fails, you get seemingly random data on the planet; sometimes it will reveal a fleet there, sometimes not. Sometimes you see what is in the fleet, other times not. Sometimes you see troops on the surface, other times not. I've never caught a pattern to failed recon missions, so I don't know if you could ever find the base with a failed recon mission. Obviously if it succeeded, you would, and if it fails, then you know the Rebels are there and you can check it with another method (like a ship, if you are launching the droids from a nearby Carrack or something).

 

The thread mentioned above was not a good test at all. Firstly, as Alzir noted, they didn't have even numbers, nor varying numbers (like 6 vs. 6, 15 vs. 15, and 30 vs. 30). Nor did they test the fighters against capital ships to see the effect of leadership against other targets. Nor did they attempt to test response time, like how long from receiving new orders it takes for the fighters to begin to act upon the new orders (which response time might be better with a commander present). Nor did they test Imperial leadership bonuses, as Alzir also noted. It also appears all tests were conducted with Alliance carriers going to an Imperial planet; a true test would require Alliance carriers meeting Imperial carriers over a neutral world, just to rule out variables. Preferably a neutral, uninhabited world, like in the Outer Rim somewhere.

 

To further reduce variables, one could use RebEd to make one fighter, say TIE fighters, available to both sides, and thus eliminate any differences between fighters at all. In which case, with both sides using the exact same fighters (in this case TIEs), then 6 vs. 6 should be exactly dead even, with 50% of the wins going to one side, and 50% to the other. Then any significant difference to that 50% ratio would automatically indicate the affect of leadership bonuses, and to what extent This would also help with eliminating variables, like the TIEs launching from their carriers, because both sides would need to launch (which isn't an issue for their test if it was over an Imperial world, but would be over a neutral planet). Or better yet, let both sides have TIEs, which are unshielded and represent the most basic fighter (thus fewer variables like tractor beams or other special weapons) but modify the TIEs to have hyperdrives.

 

Use the hyperdrive TIEs with both sides, equal numbers per side, in combat over a neutral, uninhabited world. Test overall survival rates, as well as command response time, then conduct tests against capital ships (like something basic, say, Corellian Corvettes). A true test would require testing with multiple types of fighters as well, so a test with, say, A-wings on both sides, and then B-wings or TIE Defenders on both sides, would also be required to complete the study. But the first test, with just the TIEs, should be sufficient to give a pretty darn good idea of what the command bonus is.

 

The other test on that thread seemed much more valid (the shield strength and bombardment test). Just as a side note.

 

I can't believe you wouldn't play online, Xan! It has to be so much more exciting than that deficient AI. If any one of the programmers here could rewrite the AI to make it better and more random (without just allowing the computer to produce more junk or knowing everything you do), they would be a hero... I'd throw five bucks their way.

Yeah... I just don't have the time to play online all at once, and don't have any buddies locally who play the game. I could probably play online if my opponent agreed to leave and come back to it later... As for the AI, so far as I know its hard-coded in. But using SWRE to modify AI values, you can influence it's decisions... For instance, I upped the AI value for B-wings, so the computer wouldn't always build A-wings and nothing else.

 

Also, I tend to give the computer a steep advantage. Their ships cost 25% less than mine (or even less), and I give them a head start in research, with more ships available at the start, and more guaranteed force users. I also don't play full-contact with the AI- I usually let them build up a little at the beginning of the game before I utterly crush them. Otherwise, I would just disable their economy and my other changes wouldn't ever matter!

 

Speaking of which... if anyone is interested, I wrote a 22 page strategy guide years ago... never finished it, and never released it to the public. If anybody wants it, I can spruce it up a bit, and send a copy. PM me if you're interested (include your email so I can send it to ya).

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

Why not keep going?

How about tractor beams. Do we know Exactly what they do? If, as it's written somewhere on these forums, tractor beams subtract their value from an enemy ship's sublight speed, some capital could be completely immobilized. I assume this means they can't even turn. Also, fighters could likely be targeted and stopped. Having looked into threads, though, there is a conradiction. Danish wrote a chart that had 2 tractor stopping 5 sublight, 3 tractor stopping 9 sublight, 4 tractor stopping 12 sublight, 5 tractor stopping 16, and 6 stopping 21.

I wonder if agility of fighters is affected.

 

Can a rebel base in hyperspace be intercepted and destroyed by blockade?

I once had an ion cannon as a lone defense with troop regiments, and my friend tried to bombard with an ISD and failed repeatedly(never succeeded). Is this normal? After that I built a bunch of ion cannons since they are cheap. Do LNRs kill only during assaults, or during bombardment too? Anything cool these defenses do that one wouldn't know intuitively? I thought I read something somewhere about ion cannons doing something in battle...

So, add to surround's benefits that it activates tractors on the target. What about stand off? What does it accomplish? Max Range? Defense from tractors? Will the ship actually move farther away if the ship approaches?

 

I may just do tests like that once the game arrives. Wouldn't want personnel wasted as commanders if they have little or no effect. Or would at least like to know precisely what commanders do. Then again, one of the coolest parts about rebellion is not knowing exactly how and whether everything will work.

 

If I do (tests), I'll post the results in this thread.

[Master_Xan]

1. Tractor beams, so far as I know, affect sublight speed for capitals, and agility for fighters. You can completely stop a ship (that's the blue haze they get when they stop). I've never tested how it all works, so what you found from others is all I know about the numerical side of things (like how strong you need them to be before another ship stops).

 

2. The base cannot arrive at a blockaded position, so far as I know. Just like a facility in transit, it is repelled. I believe simply to it's place of origin, but I haven't tested it. That would be interesting to know, actually, but not particularly useful, since it doesn't come up often... still interesting though.

 

3. Ion cannons disable an enemy ship's weapons. Temporarily. So when they bombard, the ship looses it's bombardment value. A single ship, then, would never do any damage. LNRs kill during bombardments too, which is why I prefer to use them over Ion cannons... why disable temporarily when you can destroy? Though I'm not sure if a ship hit with LNR fire still "fired" against a planet, doing damage before it was destroyed...

 

Also, with two shield generators, it is impossible to assault a planet. One shield must be destroyed via bombardment or sabotage first. Sometimes I put two shields at Corescant, load up troops, and ignore it's defenses the rest of the game. No fighters or fleets necessary. Rebels come, rebels go, and my planet never cares much... if they stay too long, I start sabotaging their ships.

 

So far as I know, ion cannons do nothing during a battle. But I don't use ion cannons much, so there may be something there I don't know about.

 

4. Surround tactics do allow more ships to get into tractor range of the target. Stand off is useful because it doesn't have the negatives of surround (like putting your ships deeper into the enemy lines). Ships do not back away to maintain maximum range to target; once they arrive, they simply stay there unless the target moves out of range.

 

If you do tests, I would love to hear your results. Also, I updated that little guide I mentioned; its now 25 pages. Lots of good tactics in there, if anybody wants it.

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

Sure! I'm reading everything I can find. Like a cigarette addict smoking straws obsessively. I will PM you my address.

[DarthTex]

So far as I know, ion cannons do nothing during a battle. But I don't use ion cannons much, so there may be something there I don't know about.

Are you talking about the Ion cannons on the ship, or the defensive Ion cannon on a system? Planetary Ion cannons don't do anything to enemy ships in orbit, whether they are bombarding or not. They're sole purpose is to destroy attacking troops during planetary assaults.

 

During space battles, enemy fleets always attack your most powerful ship first; there is one exception (maybe) depending where you have your command officers. Sometimes those ships get attacked first depending on how effective they (your command officers) are. Usually the "latest" technology ship is considered the most powerful.

 

When playing as the Empire, I have just a few Tie Defenders, just to "suck off" the enemy fighters while my Tie Bombers go in for the swarm attack! Although, some capital ships will still take pot shots at them.

[Master_Xan]

Sorry, I meant ion cannons on the planet do nothing in orbital battles. Your scheme using a few Defenders to let Bombers through is nifty! Probably wouldn't work with the Alliance though, since B-wings are higher tech and probably what they attack first... unless you wanted to use Y-wings instead.

[Alzir]

I always forget about RebEd, but that's a great suggestion regarding the test conditions Xan. Just need someone bothered enough to run it

 

Two very small points given the posts above:

 

1. Tractor beams, so far as I know, affect sublight speed for capitals, and agility for fighters. You can completely stop a ship (that's the blue haze they get when they stop). I've never tested how it all works, so what you found from others is all I know about the numerical side of things (like how strong you need them to be before another ship stops).

 

I was showing a friend from work the game over the weekend and discovered the tractor beam (1 star destroyer vs corette) doesn't completely stop a ship so much that it elimates the possibility of escape. You'll move slowly, but there is a chance of getting away, albeit small by the time you decide you better retreat, having engaged. Pedantic point really

 

Wouldn't want personnel wasted as commanders if they have little or no effect

 

I'm 100% convinced from experience that they do have a significant effect, but lack the numbers to back this up as fact.

 

Anything cool these defenses do that one wouldn't know intuitively?

 

Something I've not really looked at too closely, but I remember reading once that Ion cannons, in particular, have a higher detection value. Apart from that no, at least not in the tactical view, which I think you were getting it. It's not like Imperium Galactica anyway

Edited April 27, 2010 by Alzir

[Alzir]

Oh and that technique with fighters does work with Rebels as well. If you have a Y or B wing, send it as far away as you can from the Imperial fighter swarm, and they'll waste time flying towards killing the lone bomber, while your X or A wings start to work on them (assuming no bombers on their side). Using it to get another swarm of lower class bombers is nifty though, and I haven't used that before, but mostly because I rarely use bombers in large numbers since fighters do the job just fine when it matters, and can defend themselves.

[Master_Xan]

From what I have read from others, it takes more than one ISD to stop a corvette using tractors... But again, I haven't tested things, so... yeah.

 

Just as a fun note, KDY ion cannons have an attack value of 2000. That is, they do up to 2000 points to enemy ships (considered only disable points, leaving the enemy ship not permanently damaged). LNR Is only have a rating of 800, and LNR IIs have 5000. This means an ion cannon can disable ships 2.5 times as strong as what an LNR can destroy.

 

Also fun to note, with a rating of 5, KDY cannons are more resistant to bombardment than any other structure. Shield generators are only rated at 3, meaning if you can get past their shields, they are easier to destroy by bombardment than ion cannons. Only mines are equal, with a rating of 5 as well.

 

I'm not sure about detection values; RebEd doesn't list any detection values for structures at all. I'm going to check SWRE to see if it lists them.

 

EDIT: SWRE doesn't list any detection values (or sensors, as it calls them) for structures. Any structure.

[Alzir]

EDIT: SWRE doesn't list any detection values (or sensors, as it calls them) for structures. Any structure.

 

Oh that's good to know, I can't remember where I read it, but it was clearly wrong in that case.

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

I don't have to imagine another strata of complexity into the game today. It arrived!

 

There are plenty more little quirks I'd like to know, like whether popular support at a particular system has ANY influence on the outcome of a battle, or whether one could purposely keep the rebel base in hyperspace for very long periods through trickery and self-subterfuge, But I'm just going to PLAY! Ahhhhhh...

Yesterday's thought: the potential for the employment of misinformation against a multiplayer opponent is probably greatly undervalued and nderappreciated. The one person I've played thinks I play rather slowly, but I think he's overlooked the breadth of armaments you can use against a human adversary. Changing the destination of shipyards at the last moment, withdrawing a small blockade the day before his fleet arrives, decoying fleets, stockpiling on a planet while personnel operate on an unimportant neighbor.

I don't know how effective misleading an opponent would be cause I've only played one person, but I'm excited about the possibilities there.

 

Though I know everyone posts for their own reasons, I sincerely appreciate the responses to my annoying questions. If any of you don't know about it already, you should consider trying Star Wars ccg. That card game is the best ever. It takes the best elements of Rebellion and stacks them in a similar one on one format. The people are great, the game's still alive, and it's just the best 'strategy' game ever.

Hope to play some of you soon. Will post relevant "studies" here if they occur.

 

Thanks for that guide, Xan, read it through.

[DarthTex]

... Changing the destination of shipyards at the last moment, ... , decoying fleets, ...

These two items caught my attention. I have never tried to do the first; does this just involve changing the destination prior to completion? I'm guessing this doesn't require a "restart" of construction. The second sounds like it may be "ghost fleeting"; could you explain in more detail how your "decoying" works?

[Rebelllllllllllllllll]

I read about ghost fleeting and think it's legitimate, though I would acquiesce if an opponent disliked the practice. Seems like a legitimate counter-intelligence maneuver. But I didn't mean to bring that up there. By decoying, you could conduct chump sabotage missions to a particular planet leading up to a small fleet arriving, while dispatching a larger and more substantial fleet to a location nearby where you now know defensive resources will be less focused. Got a manual with my copy and it disclosed some interesting facts I will post here.

Planet defender ion cannons

1 fire on troops

2 "reduces enemy ships' shields and weapons energy"

3. Allows characters (troops etc?) to pass through blockade from surface

4. prevents the fleet from detecting missions (sabotage [untested])

 

Command personnel are more likely to foil missions with a high espionage rating, and more likely to capture or kill the foiled mission's personnel with a high combat rating. The manual phrases this ability as though they pass it on to their troops.

 

Someone told me that missions are more likely to succeed if you have more people, without limits. I.E. cumulative espionage, conmbat etc. are all that count provided you have enough decoys. However, the manual disagrees (which doesn't mean he's wrong). It says less people are less likely to get caught. Also, if all people on mission "failed to return", maual says, the decoys may still have survived.

I've seen the charts on Rebed, but does anyone know the formula by which missions and personnel are detected with decoys and without? (I don't actually expect an answer to this, but one would be great if it came.)

 

Command personnel cannot be traitors.

 

Sorry if I'm rehashing stuff everyone else already knows, but if someone else comes here with the same questions I had, I want them to be able to find the answers.

 

Tractor beams work. Sometimes even with the "stand off" tactic. They reduce the sublight speed of the ship by the strength of the tractor beam. Though there is a testimonial elsewhere on the site which attests to fighters being held in place, I haven't observed that yet, though I haven't had a big enough fleet (and remembered) to make it possible.

Many of the AIs woes stem from the fact that it has no regard for distance between sectors and the relative efficiency of accomplishing objectives locally before dispatching characters and fleets to the other end of the galaxy. Its charcters spend most of their time in hypertransit, and are thus not only largely ineffective, but often easily intercepted. Is there any way to change the time it takes one side's characters to travel?

[Slocket]

You can take the data points from the RebEd chart and do a simple polynomial approximation. A quadratic shoulds suffice Ax^2+Bx+C use three data points and solve (matrix math if you want 3*3 way); or by the yea' ole' formula from high school algebra that solves for quadratics.

 

There is a way to speed up natural basic movement in galaxy for personal not on a ship, factory deploymemt, etc. See link here.

 

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27590&p=541929&hilit=+speed+hyperspeed#p541929

 

File name GNPRTB.DAT

 

Rebellion

--- Novice 00000032

--- Intermediate 00000036

--- Expert 0000003a

Empire

--- Novice 0000003e

--- Intermediate 00000042

--- Expert 00000046

 

Millenium Falcon effect

--- Expert 00000a5e

--- Intermediate 00000a5a

--- Novice 00000a56

[spice320]

It Seems to me that all these strategies work against the computer but playing a live person it seems these strategies do not work as well. I have experienced personnel getting killed when looking for reb diplomats in neutral systems etc.