The problem with mods

[MonkeyBiz]

Having now become a one man mod team (designer, coder, skinner, modeler, rigger, animator, and tester), it's become painfully obvious as to what the problem is with the vast majority of the mods are that are either released or under development. The problem is that most of the mods I'm seeing and reading about lack any kind of coherent vision. More often than not, it's someone throwing more units into the game without first considering WHICH units they should throw into the game. And on top of that, the units they're putting in are generally poor conversions of Warlords units. Believe me when I say that the Warlords units, in general, look excellent. The skins will occaisonally need some work. But it's nothing that a little touchup in Photoshop can't cure. Poor conversions come down to either a lack of creativity or just plain laziness. And really, if that's the case, you should probably put down the mouse and keyboard and go play outside.

 

However, my hat goes off to the guys in DE and LOW and AOSW and IA2, because converting the warlords models takes forever. I've been spending about 5-7 hours a day for the last five days converting models, and I've converted 24 models. So far, that's gotten me through two tech levels of units, one unique unit, and all the fighters. I still have 14 regular units, 3 space stations, and 9 more unique units to do. At the moment, I'm only using four stock units, because they aren't in the Warlords pack and I can't find them anywhere. That may change, depending on what EvilleJedi releases.

 

Trust me when I say that when I announce this formally, shortly before I release it, it's going to rock a lot of worlds.

 

In the meantime, I'd like some opinions from other people. Why are so many mods just downright bad?

[jedi_consulor]

On your second point, I generally agree with. I have seen many poor quality conversions in mods. Laziness ? - lack of creativity ? - for sure lack of creativity. The most annoying thing about the warlords conversions I have seen, is the fact they are unbalanced because of too many hardpoints - which then make them too powerful in game. Secondly is the fact that their lack of vision resulted in those conversions not even having break off bits like the developers intended the units to have in the game. It's more of a lack of vision to carrying on the work what the developers started, then a failure to try and produce new units.

 

It resulted in poor quality conversions.

 

I won't comment on DE or LOW as I think they are way above this criticism, and are at least taking their time to do it right.

 

JC

[MonkeyBiz]

When it comes to hardpoints, the problem is that compared to the stock units they have tons of hardpoints. But when you're redoing everything, then it makes more sense. For example, the smallest ship in either fleet has 5 hardpoints. The ImpStarII will have 24. That's not unbalanced, that's realistic. Scale will also play a big part. Hold your hands about six inches apart. That's accurate scale for an ImpStarII at 1mm = 1m. Fighters should essentially be specks on the screen compared to the big capital ships.

[El Duderino]

I think the problem may be a gradual lack of interest. People just can't be bothered finishing what they've started after maybe a few weeks, not just in modding but in almost all things.

 

If there's not a great reward or responsibility in play, people just won't bother, thinking "What the hell, I'm not losing anything". Thats probably why the mod teams on the big mods are usually quite big : more people, more incentive to keep going. Just needs momentum.

 

BTW, do you need help with your mod, 'cos I'd love to help (coder, icon-er, text-er)..  ;D

 

 

 

 

Ahh.. what a good cover for a blatant plug..

[jedi_consulor]

When it comes to hardpoints, the problem is that compared to the stock units they have tons of hardpoints. But when you're redoing everything, then it makes more sense. For example, the smallest ship in either fleet has 5 hardpoints. The ImpStarII will have 24. That's not unbalanced, that's realistic. Scale will also play a big part. Hold your hands about six inches apart. That's accurate scale for an ImpStarII at 1mm = 1m. Fighters should essentially be specks on the screen compared to the big capital ships.

 

Yes that's quite true, so when in a mod (like I have seen) when people mix warlords models that have more HP's with stock models in the game - you then get an unbalanced game. This I find annoying but what is more annoying really to me is none of these warlord conversions (except) for Keepers conversions had break off bits. His were great for adding to a stock game so it can be done that way without adding tons more hard points. Unless your completely replacing all units with warlords = more hardpoint versions. in which case it keeps in with the balance.

[MonkeyBiz]

Most people agree that when you blast a turbolaser tower, half the ship shouldn't fall off.

 

My models include damage effects, but no breakoffs. Watching an injured capital ship limp around the map trailing smoke is, in all honesty, awesome.

[jedi_consulor]

Yes I recall people talking about this saying "oh you don't see them breaking off in the movies" which is true except for a Star Destroyer Shield generator that is. even then it didn't break off it kind of blew up.

 

Even so as the game developers liked the idea of stuff breaking off, it would of been nice for people to do their conversions like that. I think maybe thats what keeper was trying to do as well - keep the units like the stock in game versions. It doesn't appeal to everyone but it never bothered me either way about break off pieces until the fact that everyone who converts warlords lately don't want to remain faithful to the game and do the models as an compliment to the game rather than a total replacement of the work the game dev's did in the first place.

[DragonShadow]

Most people agree that when you blast a turbolaser tower, half the ship shouldn't fall off.

 

My models include damage effects, but no breakoffs. Watching an injured capital ship limp around the map trailing smoke is, in all honesty, awesome.

 

thank you... ;D

[THX1138_pff]

Maye the problem is that all the bad mods are the same and when they see another they cant be bothered to do it anymore cos someone else is. Then they return next week and start again.

[Kelathin]

wow...thanks for the compliment you guys.

 

I actually wrote a tutorial today in class on starting a good mod.

 

If you like to talk online, I like you to critique certain areas of it which this posts brings up.

Contact my msn bladesinger88@hotmail.com aim: Kelathinadun88

 

Think about it this way... a ssd is 19,000 meters. Right? In FoC it blows up about 1/12 of the total length per hardpoint. what's 1/12 of 19,000 meters? roughly 1500. So a turbolaser falling off causes over a mile of space ship to be blown away? I don't think so... doesn't seem physically possible.

 

I like monkeybiz way of doing models. Damage effects are good, but no breakoffs.

[jedi_consulor]

now you put it that way I see what you mean guys. guess you converted me LOL - because I bow to your logic on this Many people do just prefer damage smoke and what not. Seems unlikely like a mile of ship would blow off from a hardpoint being destroyed. Never thought of it like that before.

[R2-Opus2]

I too like seeing ships not quite dead drifting around.  My favorite thing to do is take out a ship's engines and most of its harmful weapons and watch it trail fire.  Cool. 

 

On the issues of mods themselves, I think where this game is concerned anyway, is that it seems most modders are busy making huge conversions/map packs etc.  While I applaud that sort of thing and look forward to it, I don't think there's enough smaller high quality dosages of stuff.  I'm just as happy checking out a conversion as I am to download a single map or standalone unit if its cool.  I guess I prefer quality over quantity on these sorts of things.

[1upD]

Think about it this way... a ssd is 19,000 meters. Right? In FoC it blows up about 1/12 of the total length per hardpoint. what's 1/12 of 19,000 meters? roughly 1500. So a turbolaser falling off causes over a mile of space ship to be blown away? I don't think so... doesn't seem physically possible.

Firstly, your a genuis.

Secondly, it's not supposed to be one turbolaser. The ship fire was probably weakening a lot more, and the turbolasers were blown off in the process...at least, I think...

 

Anyways, that fact is creepy.

[Droid803]

Blast Reigon (the blackened thing) Yes for Sure - charring from heat still occurs

Damage Particels (smoke) Yes for sure - Oxygen onboard the ship burns, smoke is sucked into space.

Breakoffs, I think should only be on Proton Torpedo Bays and Concussion Missile Launchers - those things carry warheads which do tend on blowing up if shot at too much, also the way ships get big explosions in real lif - hit the ammo (or the fule, but not taking that into account). Energy-based weaponry or weaponry with non-volatile projectiles should blow off...well, unless it LOOKS like it could get blow off easily, such as the Vengeance Frigate mass drivers.

 

And yes just to clarify, a hardpoint on the SSD is a battery which can be anywhere from, say 10-100 individual turbolaser emplacements, same with Star Destroyer Hardpoints, and everything else for that matter. Still, blowing off a mile of ship is a little absurd to say the least. They should have shrunken the size of the breakoffs at least, to like, um...to be at most corvett-sized, blast area could be bigger tho ...I like the look of blackened ships trailing smoke

[jedi_consulor]

Would have been better though if the developers had made those break off bits smaller ? - I mean if Kel's calculations are right - its just damned bizzare ! Perhaps break off bits in smaller bits would be better for some area's of the ship where some thing would blow up so to speak - like a shield generator at the top of an SD maybe.

 

I like the idea better though of having just emit damage effects and hull scarring - (black bits around the hull) on the HP that has been hit badly. As well as emitting particles

[u_579]

I agree, the only thing I figuare is if each battery had a reactor that went out with quite a bang......  Oh and nice models MonkeyBiz.

[Kelathin]

DE does it because it looks cool, but

d803 space is near absolute zero... how does heating still occur?

Damage particles(smoke) won't occur, when things take damage, an electomagentic shielding occurs, so the pressure of oxygen escaping doesn't take half the ship off.

Breakoffs that's not a bad though on the proton torpedos.

 

For those who don't know, lasers draw the firepower from the main reactor.

[DragonShadow]

DE does it because it looks cool, but

d803 space is near absolute zero... how does heating still occur?

 

original splash damage from the explosion. heat is still released and generated by the explosion when stuff is destroyed, it just dissipates rapidly.

[Droid803]

Yes exactly that, but thats enough to leave some sort of a mark...otherwise what use would energy-based beapons be in space if you can't burn a hole through anything?

 

lol the scientific analysis of star wars. No thanks, you'll find out that nothing actually has been proven aside from Ion Engines (that don't produce enough thrust to operate in the atmosphere)..blah blah blah...

 

 

Fact is, a smoking damaged ship looks better than a ship that looks like its *perfect* when in fact it is crippled; thats also how the devs did it, so go along with the style...

 

Stop making lame excuses to be lazy and cut back on work saying "its not realistic". Well, the devs made it this way and its approved by LucasArts, so therefore, it is realistic, in terms of the Star Wars universe.

[Kelathin]

I was mocking your english man.

 

Lazy? I'm leader of DE bro, I don't accept lazy modders on my team. I have high standards for even conversions. I don't have to go along with the style, my team works because they enjoy the concept, the joy of modding. We agreed it sucks. Yes smoke looks good, we did that. We're going to be toying around with units that we add on the ground, having smoke leave the barrels after firing, seeing how that looks. I'll take my damn time to do the models right, the skins, the deathclones, the animations, but breakoffs are unrealistic. I and many others find it less realistic. It doesn't look as good either.

 

Lucasarts approve alot if it looks bad, there will never be a released Star Wars game that is perfect. Kotor was the one exception due to Bioware status as an established company. Lucasarts approves many things, rushes games, because they don't want games outdoing the movies. Plain and Simple.

 

@dragonshadow you realise I'm sure that once intial explosion occurs, the ship either covers the port with a backup layer of metal or uses an electromagentic shield to restablish pressure and contain oxygen, otherwise the pressure gradient to tear the ship to pieces. So much for escaping oxygen to fuel flaming metal .

[Guest]

most mods are the same

 

they are like" "WOW! LOOK WE HAVE A FREAKING SUPER STAR DESTROYER AND TIE DEFENDERS!"  :

[Droid803]

Why does everyone think that my comments are directed to them.

Kelathin you should know very well who that lazy comment is to the lines of AGD - empty hull with a few bones, but tons of models...

Why can't people ever read my comments right >.< (and no don't tell me I was being vague, or if its my way of speaking. Thoughts and feelings do not travel well over the internet it seems.)

[1upD]

Thoughts and feelings do not travel well over the internet it seems.

Actually, I always thought I could speak my mind easier on the internet(And thus sometimes I accidentally act really rude over the internet)

[Mikan Cyclone]

Tensions rising...Flame war imminent *grabs popcorn*

 

We all know the damage has been done.  Lets not whine about it to each other or worry about what it was like back in the old days.  Make some XML mods, for craps sake!

[MonkeyBiz]

XML will only take you so far. To truly remake the game, you've gotta have models.

 

Let's keep the flaming to a minimum, okay folks?