Empire Discussion

[Mikan Cyclone]

so, by your reckoning it's better to give up and die and not even try to save yourself?

 

What the heck does that have to do with any of our arguments?  All you did was twist our words into something different right there.

 

And the shock factor is a weak argument. They are Jedi probably the last people that you could take by suprise and the least likely to be shocked by something.  And with thier lightning fast reflexes they would react rather quickly even if they were taken by suprise. Their is some dumb idea floating around that the only reason yoda lost to Palpatine was because he "was so hurt or grieved by the loss of the other jedi". did not yoda himself tell anakin to "rejoice for those who transform into the force" and all that non-attachement stuff? Yes he did.

 

the Jedi's deaths were lame to save screen time......... no more.......... no less........

 

Of course they died fast to save screen time.  Easily known fact.  Also, the shock factor may be a weak argument, but you failed to address the other one.  I only mentioned the shock factor.  You completely avoided the clones shooting him argument.

[Logan Felipe]

so, by your reckoning it's better to give up and die and not even try to save yourself?  :

 

Oh that's real jedi like  :

 

And the shock factor is a weak argument. They are Jedi probably the last people that you could take by suprise and the least likely to be shocked by something.  : And with thier lightning fast reflexes they would react rather quickly even if they were taken by suprise. Their is some dumb idea floating around that the only reason yoda lost to Palpatine was because he "was so hurt or grieved by the loss of the other jedi". did not yoda himself tell anakin to "rejoice for those who transform into the force" and all that non-attachement stuff? Yes he did.

 

the Jedi's deaths were lame to save screen time......... no more.......... no less........

 

you will try...............

 

But seriously... What's wrong with rooting for the bad guys? What's wrong with laughing at hilarious facial expressions? NOTHING

 

Another factor you're forgetting is the Dark Side's shrouding their judgment. On the Invisible Hand, Obi and Anakin fail to predict the ray shield ambush.

"How did this happen?! We're smarter than this!" -Obi Wan

"The Dark Side shouds everything." -Yoda

"I fear our ability to use the force is diminished." -Mace

 

The collective Dark Side energies of the Emperor and Anakin blinded them. It clouded their foresight, and their judgement.

[Controller]

so, by your reckoning it's better to give up and die and not even try to save yourself?  Roll Eyes

 

Oh that's real jedi like :

well yes it is. when he know your dead no matter what he did, maybe he prepared to become one with the force.

 

Another factor you're forgetting is the Dark Side's shrouding their judgment. On the Invisible Hand, Obi and Anakin fail to predict the ray shield ambush.

"How did this happen?! We're smarter than this!" -Obi Wan

"The Dark Side shouds everything." -Yoda

"I fear our ability to use the force is diminished." -Mace

 

The collective Dark Side energies of the Emperor and Anakin blinded them. It clouded their foresight, and their judgement.

very, very true.

 

also if you play the battlefront II campaign, after the you beat the first level the clone trooper says something like "and if they could be fooled they could be killed" or something to that affect, the jedi just couldn't see that far ahead anymore.

[Guest]

What the heck does that have to do with any of our arguments?  All you did was twist our words into something different right there.

 

mmmm... no, If your engines are blown out I'd try to DO something. Plo Koon gave up without a fight.

 

ARC-170s Fire on Plo Koon

"Oh No! my engines are gone!"

Looks out the cockpit

"I guess I'd rather look the window rather than check all of these advanced sytems in my starfighter to see who shot me."

"I'll just put my head in between my legs and die now."

 

well yes it is. when he know your dead no matter what he did, maybe he prepared to become one with the force.

 

Covering your head with your hands and cowering is a great way to become one with the force  :

 

also if you play the battlefront II campaign, after the you beat the first level the clone trooper says something like "and if they could be fooled they could be killed" or something to that affect, the jedi just couldn't see that far ahead anymore.

 

You completely avoided the clones shooting him argument.

 

Also in the SWBF2 campagin they said that "the Jedi were wary...... hard to keep ki-adi-mundi in the dark"

Therefore, It probably wouldn't suprise ki-adi-mundi if the clones started shooting him if he suspected they were up to something. And If all of the Jedi thought the same which SWBF2 implies that they did then we can infer that most if not all of the jedi were expecting something like that.

 

In Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, Shryne and his jedi homies instantly knew something was up through their force "danger senses" and were wary of Salvo and his troopers.

 

Another factor you're forgetting is the Dark Side's shrouding their judgment. On the Invisible Hand, Obi and Anakin fail to predict the ray shield ambush.

"How did this happen?! We're smarter than this!" -Obi Wan

"The Dark Side shouds everything." -Yoda

"I fear our ability to use the force is diminished." -Mace

 

The collective Dark Side energies of the Emperor and Anakin blinded them. It clouded their foresight, and their judgement.

 

nice, score one for you 

 

but if the "collective Dark Side energies of the Emperor and Anakin blinded them. It clouded their foresight, and their judgement." So then Anakin clouded and blinded himself from predicting the ray sheild ambush?  :-\

[Mikan Cyclone]

After reviewing the footage of how he died, I'm pretty sure this is what happened.

 

He's flying.  The ARC's start firing.  He checks his radar.  He looks back to confirm it's his ally's firing.  He tries to outmaneuver, but loses his engine.  He looks as if he's about to engage something, whether it's trying to lock it down or eject, but his engine either goes critical or he gets hit in the reactor, and the explosion kills him, and he plummets into the building.

 

If you don't believe me, watch the video again yourself.

 

The reason it said Ki would be wary was this:  He put them under strict orders.  He saw them carrying out those orders, but they also did something else, and he didn't know exactly what it was, but he knew they did something else.  Also, when that was mentioned, they knew what order 66 was, but they had no possible idea on when to enact it.  At that point, he was their General and their most trusted advisor.  They would give their lives to protect him.  All he's doing in the campaign is reminiscing.

 

I know absolutly NOTHING of this Shryne, but from what Wookiepedia says (I know it's not 100% reliable, bite me....OH NO NOT THERE!), a "Captain Climber" misdirected the attack on him, so while he may have sensed hostile minds, he probably sensed the hostility from the clones, but he wasn't in any danger because this "Climber" guy spared him.

[Empireftw]

Also most of these insidents were in battle the jedi wouldnt have been able to tell if the hostility was torward them or the enemy.

[Guest]

Climber was a squad leader of Ion team a bunch of republic commandos. While they did spare Shryne by redirecting the EMP grenade rounds to Salvo's position, Shryne sensed danger and reacted instantly when he heard the charges go off.

 

And it dosent' really look like Plo koon actually tries to manuver, he just looks at some stuff and dies.

 

the Clones would give thier lives for anyone. The Republic that is. Their entire purpose is to fight and die for the republic. Every single clone obeyed order 66 without question EXCEPT for Ion Team who at the time believed that the CIS had somehow hacked into thier communications and gave them orders to kill the jedi. After that was cleared up they immeadiatley whent after the jedi.

 

I think this debate is dissolving

[Controller]

no Ion team never went after the jedi. lord vader had to of them killed and the other two imprisoned. the thought it was the CIS up until lord vader came to see them

 

 

but if the "collective Dark Side energies of the Emperor and Anakin blinded them. It clouded their foresight, and their judgement." So then Anakin clouded and blinded himself from predicting the ray sheild ambush?  :-\

before Anakin became a sith it was Dooku who helped cloud their judgement

[Guest]

no, salvo kept Climber, Ion Team's squad leader with him while the other members of Ion team went after the jedi

[Controller]

ahhh. well i haven't read that book in ages, and i don't have a copy. so point to you

[Mikan Cyclone]

He's CLEARLY about to do something before his engine goes critical.  It's not like any Jedi would just sit down and die, unless they feel it is the will of the force (like Obi-Wan).

 

Of course the clones would give their lives for the Republic, that's how they were programmed.  Before order 66, however, they would gladly and without hesitation do ANYTHING for the Jedi.  But, because the Jedi were just Generals, they followed Order 66 without question because Palpatine, as leader of the Empire, had more authority then a bunch of Generals.

 

Also, again, it says on Wookiepedia that Vader killed two members of Ion team after they refused to kill the Jedi.  The others fled, were captured, and some were killed.  It might not be the way it goes, but right now, you have two people against your argument.  The only way we can resolve this is if we get the book and read exactly what happens.

[Guest]

Ion team participated in the search for the jedi up until all of the droids were shut down. Then the clones rounded up all the locals including the jedi who had now disguised themselves as mercianaries. Then when they were all rounded up Dath Vader Arrived because he had been sent by the emperor to deal with the situation. Ion team was rounded up and brought before vader. He asks them why they did not comply with order 66 when was given and Climber once again explains that they thought it was a sepratists trick and Vader Says "You thought wrong". Then Climber Says "we will accept execution for out actions but not by any lapdog of the emperor's" then they start shooting him and he kills all of Ion team except for climber and some other commando who take off, then they are eventually rounded up by Vader's 501st shock troopers and are quietly executed.

 

So Ion team knew that what they had done was wrong and they were accepted thier punishment except I guess Climber just didn't like vader........ he'd rather be killed by someone else I guess

[Controller]

thats correct, except that the climber and the other commando were imprisoned for life not killed

[Mikan Cyclone]

Every single clone obeyed order 66 without question EXCEPT for Ion Team who at the time believed that the CIS had somehow hacked into thier communications and gave them orders to kill the jedi. After that was cleared up they immeadiatley whent after the jedi.

 

You said here that after Ion Team worked it all out, they went after the Jedi.  You contradicted yourself. =D

[Empireftw]

HE just read the wiki article and got messed up it happens to all of us XD

[Guest]

You said here that after Ion Team worked it all out, they went after the Jedi.  You contradicted yourself. =D

 

define "it all"

 

: worked out the situation of blasting Salvo and his platoon with EMP grenades and finding that in fact the CIS did not hack their communications

 

I don't see any contradiction, maybe a lack of specific information but no contradiction.

 

Sorry to ruin the highlight of your day 

[Mikan Cyclone]

Highlight of my day? Naw, I got better thing to do than worry if I contradicted Cheese or not, I got better things to do....like Ryzom

 

I can safely say this argument is done.  So, why don't we go back to the original point, and praise the Empire for it's majesty and glory? =D

[Guest]

sure, why not.........

 

it seems to be that the empire was more stable than the new republic. The Empire had to put with one measley rebellion and (due to plot devices) fell. The New republic on the other hand just has these endless disasters and wars that are barely averted by the same few people every time and threatend by a superweapon on a daily basis. But That's the EU's fault. but it seems that the empire was way more peacefull than the new republic ever was.......

[Relentless]

sure, why not.........

 

it seems to be that the empire was more stable than the new republic. The Empire had to put with one measley rebellion and (due to plot devices) fell. The New republic on the other hand just has these endless disasters and wars that are barely averted by the same few people every time and threatend by a superweapon on a daily basis. But That's the EU's fault. but it seems that the empire was way more peacefull than the new republic ever was.......

 

Forget the "plot devices" crap. The movies showed how the things in the Star Wars universe, simple as that. If we're going to discuss the events and stuff of a movie series, then we have to take the "all of it was real"-attitude and go from there. You can't say something like "The Rebels only won because the good guys had to win", if you're trying to create a reasonable debate.

 

The Vietnamese rebels won their war against the great American empire because the Vietnamese were the good guys, wouldn't you say? Or not? I thought so.

[Logan Felipe]

Forget the "plot devices" crap. The movies showed how the things in the Star Wars universe, simple as that. If we're going to discuss the events and stuff of a movie series, then we have to take the "all of it was real"-attitude and go from there. You can't say something like "The Rebels only won because the good guys had to win", if you're trying to create a reasonable debate.

 

The Vietnamese rebels won their war against the great American empire because the Vietnamese were the good guys, wouldn't you say? Or not? I thought so.

The battle of Kashyyyk relates to that greatly, coincidentially.

 

Compare:

Now prior to US invasion, the US actually aided Vietnam against France, who was occupying at the time.

The US helps the Vietnamese drive out the French.

Then, the US begins their occupation of Vietnam, turning against their allies.

 

Now prior to Rise of the Empire, the Republic actually aided Kashyyyk against the Separatists, who were occupying it at the time.

The Republic helped the Wookies drive out the Separatists.

Then, the Republic begins their occupation of Kashyyyk, turning against their allies.

 

Allusions like this riddle the SW saga.

 

sure, why not.........

 

it seems to be that the empire was more stable than the new republic. The Empire had to put with one measley rebellion and (due to plot devices) fell. The New republic on the other hand just has these endless disasters and wars that are barely averted by the same few people every time and threatend by a superweapon on a daily basis. But That's the EU's fault. but it seems that the empire was way more peacefull than the new republic ever was.......

 

I'm sure Nazi Germany was really peaceful too. : (this is SARCASM)

The "one measly rebellion" bit doesn't work, either. The saga only focuses on the Rebel Alliance (which, by the way, is an ALLIANCE of MULTIPLE REBELLIONS. They're not really one group; they're a bunch of small Rebellions that share info. The Idea that they are all one was Imperial Propaganda.

 

But That's the EU's fault.

 

I agree on that one; though its hard to have a story without a conflict. OTOH, the whole theme is that "good and evil" are in constant conflict. Just look at all the Genocides and wars going on in real life right now.

[Controller]

(which, by the way, is an ALLIANCE of MULTIPLE REBELLIONS. They're not really one group; they're a bunch of small Rebellions that share info.

no after the signing of the(i forget which treaty it was) the 3 main rebel groups formed one group. the rebel alliance(they had a longer name, but i cant remember that right now) which was ONE group who worked together to overthrow the empire. the fact that they were ever separate didn't matter anymore.

[Guest]

Forget the "plot devices" crap. The movies showed how the things in the Star Wars universe, simple as that. If we're going to discuss the events and stuff of a movie series, then we have to take the "all of it was real"-attitude and go from there. You can't say something like "The Rebels only won because the good guys had to win", if you're trying to create a reasonable debate.

 

The Vietnamese rebels won their war against the great American empire because the Vietnamese were the good guys, wouldn't you say? Or not? I thought so.

 

I can't say anything about the vietnam because I no next to nothing about it. But I infer that the US was not the good guy in that situation. I'm not sure why we went to war with vietnam, I don't know if they did anything to us.

 

And this galatic civil war vs. vietnam war doesn't really work. The galactic civil war was a bunch of rebels trying to overthrow a corrupt government. The Vietnam war, was the vietnamese defending thier country against US invaders. For the most part The Empire was playing defense like the vietnamese, sort of.....

 

But really the plot devices are a HUGE factor. If the Emperor didn't want to go play mind games with Luke and Vader and instead sat safe on his throne on corusant the empire would take much longer to overthrow. Had the death star actually shot at the rebels largest ship, The Home one. The space battle would go much worse for the rebels. This roates all the way back to the begining of this thread. Leia gets shot in the arm with a blaster RIFLE, and she is fine. Han then shoots an ARMORED stormtrooper with a blaster PISTOL and instantly kills him. :

 

I'm sure Nazi Germany was really peaceful too.

 

While palpatine was very evil, he didn't really do anything that didn't gain him anything. Hitler on the other hand just killed jews because he hated them I guess, While Palpatine would exterminate an entire race if they were a threat to him he'd prefer to manipulate them, unlike the jews who I don't think are really a threat to anyone......

 

In WWI there wasn't really any bad guys. Before the US entered, WWI was almost veiwed as a sporting event. Some people rooted for germany, other's for britian, etc. It wasn't until germany sinking civilan ships that they became "the bad guy". I think, I'm no history expert but I think that's the gist of it. I also came to understand that before WWI broke out all of those European nations were spoiling for a right, just ready to go to war, wanting too even....

[Controller]

Leia gets shot in the arm with a blaster RIFLE, and she is fine. Han then shoots an ARMORED stormtrooper with a blaster PISTOL and instantly kills him

the important part of this is the fact that Leia while being shot with a more powerful weapon is shot in the arm,while the stormtrooper is shot it the chest by a weaker weapon but one still capable of killing a stormtrooper. the only thing that armor does is stop glancing shots from a blaster(of any kind)and weapons like spears and such

[Guest]

still, she dosn't even appear to be hurt, whereas stormtroopers die from anything worse than a paper cut :

 

there is even an wikipedia article about it 

 

In A New Hope, Obi-Wan explains to Luke that Sand People were not responsible for the deaths of the Jawas but instead makes an interesting note on the Stormtroopers' accuracy: "These blast points... too accurate for Sand People. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise." Proponents have claimed this shows stormtroopers are accurate when they have to be, or are perhaps camera-shy, a suggestion enhanced by the fact that the stormtroopers on the Tatooine assignment are members of the same elite 501st Legion that crushed Rebel resistance on Hoth and aboard the Tantive IV in surprisingly little time. The 501st in Revenge of the Sith eliminated the Jedi most effectively, although this is at least partly attributable to the surprise nature of their attack. When Luke and his companions are escaping the Death Star later in the movie the Stormtroopers fail to hit them despite numerous opportunities, but it is subsequently revealed that they were ordered to allow the escape so that the escapees could be tracked while making it look like they are serious in attacking them.

 

This explanation seems somewhat mitigated in other cases however, such as in Return of the Jedi on Endor in which the Stormtroopers very frequently and almost invariably miss Han Solo and Leia (though a blaster bolt grazes Leia's shoulder, and they kill at least two Ewoks) while the protagonists once again take down numerous stormtroopers without getting killed. Here, the Emperor explicitly states that the forest moon of Endor was to be a "trap" with a legion of his "best troops" awaiting them, apparently suggesting that he had no intention of letting the rebels escape this time. This, then, shows the hand of the filmmakers, as the markmanship of the troops storming Tantive IV is first rate and they suffer minimal casualties (almost none once they clear the first corridor). It should be noted, however, that in Return of the Jedi, the antagonists have a much higher accuracy in general. Non-Imperial thugs land non-lethal blaster hits on both Chewbacca and Luke during the skiff battle on Tatooine (this injury is why Luke wears one black glove throughout the rest of the film). Imperial blaster fire likewise incapacitates R2-D2 on Endor.

 

In a small and unwitting reference to Stormtrooper Effect, The Empire Strikes Back director Irvin Kershner remarked during the commentary while Chewbacca and Leia are fleeing Cloud City that, for some reason, "Good guys always shoot straight. I don't know why, but they do." This inexplicable rule also holds true in the Star Wars spoof Spaceballs.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper_effect

[Logan Felipe]

I can't say anything about the vietnam because I no next to nothing about it. But I infer that the US was not the good guy in that situation. I'm not sure why we went to war with vietnam, I don't know if they did anything to us.

The US invaded because they were a communist country. It was during the "Red Scare" era. But I think my Battle of Kashyyyk analogy works a bit better...

While palpatine was very evil, he didn't really do anything that didn't gain him anything. Hitler on the other hand just killed jews because he hated them I guess, While Palpatine would exterminate an entire race if they were a threat to him he'd prefer to manipulate them, unlike the jews who I don't think are really a threat to anyone......

Neither were the alien species in SW. Palpatine was a "humanist"; as was the rest of the Empire ("Where are you taking this...thing?"). explaining this further would take us off topic, but its very complicated. Hitler saw the Jews as a threat because they had different ideals than he did. Did Galileo ever truly pose a threat to Italy? No; but the Roman Catholic Church sentenced him to house arrest anyway because he said that the Earth revolved around the sun, and the universe was everchanging and not perfect.

In WWI there wasn't really any bad guys. Before the US entered, WWI was almost veiwed as a sporting event. Some people rooted for germany, other's for britian, etc. It wasn't until germany sinking civilan ships that they became "the bad guy". I think, I'm no history expert but I think that's the gist of it. I also came to understand that before WWI broke out all of those European nations were spoiling for a right, just ready to go to war, wanting too even....

Quoth historian Howard Zinn; "If war is human nature, then why do we have drafts?".