Re: Balance? We dont need no stinkin balance!

[ibyellow]

I thought of a way of maybe imbalancing but also making it more interesting. 

 

If the rebels had a finite limit of ships and people (as they were only sposed to be a small group) but these units got better the longer they lasted maybe some type of ranking system? And a way of upgrading individual ship systems on different ships would also be good. All the time you would need to be raidng to keep the money coming in. As i though alot of the ships etc would have been modded and slightly different, like the piratre ships would have been too. Just my ideas as i have no idea how or even if they can be implimented 

[reddogzl]

see the thing of it is, the game doesn't keep track of kills or anything like that sound that idea would be next to impossible to impliment

[Mikan Cyclone]

There is evidence that at one time there was a ranking system, but it was ripped out.  Look for it in expansions.

[z3r0x]

These are all some great ideas... When you think about it.. I think most of the people here posting are representitive of the EAW fan/mod-community base. Hopefully LucasArts takes heed. I for one love the game love the ease of modding it. However it has serious flaws....  I assume most of you play as the Empire. I know I do...  Playing as the evil empire is Wayyy more fun than the rebels. I mean for one.. the Imperials have cooler looking ships...  HAHAHA. Anyway.. Intelligence plays NO role in this game.. there is no Recon.. no real strategy. If anyone has ever played Close Combat.. then you know what I mean.. I mean there should be a strategic.. element added in that seems to be missing. Tactical strategy should also play a role... mainly in the space battles... I think it can be accomplished.. when the modding tools come out I know myself and others will be busy at work.. on many scripts.

[The_talented]

Agreed.... Now some may argue "Well in ROTJ" the rebels took out a SSD" Ya and that was on ACCIDENT. When I play as the rebels.. I just use Airspeeders and I can decimate the Imps.. The tow cable attack is Very annoying.. Look.. ESB is a perfect example... The imps landed some AT-AT's, AT-ST's and some snow troopers and the Rebels had to retreat. Thats the way it should be.. I mean the Rebels should have a hidden base somewhere and if the imps take it thats it... Thats why the Empire could not win. They could not locate the hidden rebel base. Think back to ANH and ESB.... Think about any guerilla movement.

 

ok fine fine but in teh real Sw universe there were thousands, probably even millions of planets, if EAW were to try to create a playing galactic map of anywhere even one tenth of that size, most of the pople who play the game would not even be able to install it due to the mass of information.  if the rebels were to retreat every time that they saw an ISD they rebel campaign would be sho in under ten minutes

[The_talented]

Well for one... the Imps need many many more ships... Rebels need MANY many more ships also.. lots of ragtag type ships.. not to mention stolen modifed imperial ships.. Thats another thing.. the Rebels should be able to steal Imperial ships from ship yards.. that should be the way they can only get certain types of ships..

 

My list of Imp ships that need to be added in...

 

Dreadnaught Cruiser

Lancer Frigate

Carrack Cruiser

Escort Carrier

Executor Class Super Star Destroyer

Skipray Blastboat

Torpedo Spheres

Strike-class Cruiser

Enforcer-class Picket Ship

Destructor-class Cruiser

Invader (to carry all the shuttles and drop ships)

TIE/st V38 "Phantom"

TIE Interceptor

TIE/tb Torpedo Bomber

 

Also.. the Empire should have MORE superweapons..

Galaxy Gun and maybe the Sun crusher

 

 

Rebel Units that need to be added...

Preybird

Dauntless Cruiser

Ferret-class Reconnaissance Vessel

Liberator Cruiser

Hajen-class Fleet Tender

CC-7700 Frigate

A-9 Vigilance Interceptor

B-51 B-Wing

T-Wing

R-41 Starchaser

Mynock-class Assault Boat

Skipray Blastboat

 

The nebulon B and other Imp should have to be stolen in order for the Rebels to use them...

 

dude, the neb was stolen.... but anyways, your asking too much... remember IF EAW had all these in, you would have nothing to bitch about as the GAME WOULDNT BE RELEASED TILL 2010!!

[The_talented]

I thought of a way of maybe imbalancing but also making it more interesting. 

 

If the rebels had a finite limit of ships and people (as they were only sposed to be a small group) but these units got better the longer they lasted maybe some type of ranking system? And a way of upgrading individual ship systems on different ships would also be good. All the time you would need to be raidng to keep the money coming in. As i though alot of the ships etc would have been modded and slightly different, like the piratre ships would have been too. Just my ideas as i have no idea how or even if they can be implimented 

 

yeah something like an infinitely smaller pop cap for the rebs as opposed to the imps....  i.e.instead of having the pop cap at 535 at the end of the game for the rebs, have it at 225, have it really really small so that the rebels will have to keep their >>>fleet<<< in one spot bunched up, as well as  the ground troops

[The_talented]

Mr. Caine, what is that mod called, the fact that you made the scale more realistic for space(tiny fighters, massive capital ships) was more than i needed to see to get my interest

[Mikan Cyclone]

ok fine fine but in teh real Sw universe there were thousands, probably even millions of planets, if EAW were to try to create a playing galactic map of anywhere even one tenth of that size, most of the pople who play the game would not even be able to install it due to the mass of information.  if the rebels were to retreat every time that they saw an ISD they rebel campaign would be sho in under ten minutes

 

Procedural Generation.  That's what Will Wright is using in Spore, and that game should take up about 6+gigs from the looks of it, but its like what, 25 megs? Less?  If they did it like this, They would be able to fit almost every single planet, ship, species, and creature ever mentioned in Star Wars to the game

[z3r0x]

I agree.... Doom3 was about 1.5 or 2 GB. Mr Talented. Please do not reply 4 times in a row.. just make it all in 1 post..

[Cobra848]

I want to rant about balance for a minute. Game designers always focus on balance... which to me is NOT fun or realistic. Battles are not balanced.....  Thats where RTS's have always been lacking. The teams or units should be balanced.  Think about it for a second.. Think about Surprise attacks... Surprise attacks should degrade your opponents ability to fight. In balanced games.. surprise attacks mean mothing. In fact... tactics.. NEVER matter. Its always about Attrition.. More units=Win. Its like rock paper scissors. Well I'm sorry but that is annoying and not very fun at all. With that being said.. who here agrees with me that the Rebels really have alot of advantages... Lets go over them...

 

1. Plex Soldiers - These guys are a WAYYYY to powerful.

2. Infiltrator -    Again.. Way too powerful

3. Airspeeder -    Dont even get me started on how unfair this unit is...

4. Rebel Artillery-  Again.. way too powerful.. Not to mention annoying

5. Raids - Yeah, here we go again.. Rebels can raid... Imps cannot.

 

Now.. lets think for a moment. If we add this up we conclude the Rebel alliance is pretty powerful... but thats not real and its not true to the SW facts. The rebels were a ragtag group.. they had to rely on  tactics and logistics to win. Now thats fun... not this rock paper scissors crap. With that being said.. Im going to begin working on a mod that corrects all that...  Ill keep you all posted...

 

Any ideas.. to add to this let me know

 

1.  Use Tie maulers, cheap, and they can't take out all 5 at once.

2. Same as 1

3.  AA turrets (or AT-AA if they use them a lot) , they take them down so fast

4. Just got to get in close.

 

I know it may not be as simple as I said it.  But you have got to learn counters, instead of complaining first.

[DragonShadow]

1.  Use Tie maulers, cheap, and they can't take out all 5 at once.

2. Same as 1

3.  AA turrets (or AT-AA if they use them a lot) , they take them down so fast

4. Just got to get in close.

 

I know it may not be as simple as I said it.  But you have got to learn counters, instead of complaining first.

 

That's the problem. Since when in reality did every unit have a counter-unit? When did we start building one vehicle to take out one particular type of vehicle? Real weapons are stronger against specific things, what counts is how strong the weapon is, what properties it has, and how many of them you can stack on a tank.

[Nevets]

I would prefer variety over balance any day.

[Spiralarchitech]

I would prefer variety over balance any day.

 

The balance in this game is only there with the hero's.

 

I have played a few no hero's Mp games and rebels are so overpowered,  plex soldiers and infiltrators are all you need to own the empire, and if your still having trouble throw in a few speeders.

 

Without mara jade and vader the empire has no chance, and if you do manage to get to late game their T4-B's wil beat empire up bad with out old palpatine on your side.

[DragonShadow]

The balance in this game is only there with the hero's.

 

I have played a few no hero's Mp games and rebels are so overpowered,  plex soldiers and infiltrators are all you need to own the empire, and if your still having trouble throw in a few speeders.

 

Without mara jade and vader the empire has no chance, and if you do manage to get to late game their T4-B's wil beat empire up bad with out old palpatine on your side.

 

That's probably the largest error I can find with the game: in attempting to balance the Rebels with the Empire, they've actually made the rebels too strong.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn 889]

i haven't read this Topic but for the title i agree with it i don't think that we need the 'Balencing' Mod's that people continue to invent. the game plays well and the units are visible and to a certain extent balence already (yes, there are over and under powered units but what game doesn't?). i think that if people waited for the official mods to come out then it would be better as they will be completely balenced and compatible without mishap. but now if they were creating new maps for use i think that would be good, and a mod for the campaigns that allows the Mon Cal's to create Fighters as they were intended to do. thats another matter.

[OMEGA]

I agree with most of the things already said here, and more:

 

1. Corellian Corvettes and Gunships are REDICULOUSLY overshielded. They can just waltz right into the middle of my fleet of ISD's and pwn my spawning fighters while the capital ships are engaged with each other. :o

2. Rebel Artillery.... Yeah, you get the picture. >

3. ANY VEHICLES' WEAPONS SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANNIHILATE INFANTRY. ONE SHOT FROM AN AT-AT SHOULD BE ABLE TO DECIMATE AN ENTIRE SQUAD WITH SPLASH DAMAGE.

4. Planetary Ion Cannons' effects are completely unfair and should either have a limited period of effect, (doesn't last the entire battle) or should be limited to just one shot per battle.

5. Rebel Speeders are WAY too powerful. (What ever happened to "That armor's too strong for blasters!"?") ???

6. Since he's the only chance the Empire gets at a raid fleet, (yes, he can raid!) Boba Fett should carry Thermal Detonators like Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn so that he can have at least a chance of destroying an Ion Cannon or other structure before/during a battle. (Mod request, anyone? ;D)

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this game. There are just a few things that are hindering my conquest  ....err gaming experience as a die-hard Imperial. ;D

[Stellar_Magic]

ROR Foundation utilizes thsi method. We also changed the weapons effects.

 

3. ANY VEHICLES' WEAPONS SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANNIHILATE INFANTRY. ONE SHOT FROM AN AT-AT SHOULD BE ABLE TO DECIMATE AN ENTIRE SQUAD WITH SPLASH DAMAGE.

 

Unfortunately it seems that you need to rewatch ESB.  Blaster arms have very little to no splash damage, you see an AT-AT picking off individual infantrymen in ESB, not killing whole squads with a single shot.

[Mikan Cyclone]

No all we have to do is stop complaining about it and start trying to fix it......Stop looking at me like that....

[DragonShadow]

ROR Foundation utilizes thsi method. We also changed the weapons effects.

 

Unfortunately it seems that you need to rewatch ESB.  Blaster arms have very little to no splash damage, you see an AT-AT picking off individual infantrymen in ESB, not killing whole squads with a single shot.

 

Those are the anti-infantry turrets mounted on the sides of the AT-ATs command pod. The main guns (the only ones used in-game) would vaporize groups of soldiers. You need to watch ESB again, as well.

[The_talented]

I agree.... Doom3 was about 1.5 or 2 GB. Mr Talented. Please do not reply 4 times in a row.. just make it all in 1 post..

i apologize i was replying as i was reading... ...terrible tendency

[Guest]

Ahhh....  i remember when I made a topic similar to this one. a while ago....

 

Balance ruins games. I hate having to use "counter units" too much. My favorite example is the SD. The empire didn't need any "tartan patrol cruisers" and stuff like that because the SD was nearly the ultimate battleship. But of course if that was all the empire got in the game it would be pretty boring. those other ships should cost effcient purposes. SD's have point-defense laser cannons allowing them to deal with fighters as well as it's complement of TIES. And they have medium and big guns to deal with everything else. Same goes for the Mon Cal cruisers except that the Rebels didn't have a lot of them for economic reasons. Just watch the movies. The rebels had a wide variety of ships. why? because they didn't have the means to produce the biggest and best ships. The empire on the other hand had little economic restraint so that's why we only see SD's in the flims. That's why it sucks that every unit it seems has a "weak against" thing.

 

And the vehicles....

An ATST ought to kill a group of soilders with one maybe twos shots and one form an ATAT. It's realistic. Then plex soilders would be nearly useless because all the ATST has to do is get the first shot. This not anyones fault it's just a shortcoming of an RTS game. In battlefront you can't stand out there in the open and shoot rockets at the ATST until your health finally gets whiddeld away by the lasers. One shot and BOOM your dead. That's why you have to take cover, get behind it, get out of the line of fire why you reload, etc. That's where RTS games fail us is because units can't really think for themselves that much. they stand there and shoot until they die unless you tell them otherwise. Maybe in future RTS games you won't have to worry about absurd problems like that but the independent thought may interfere with your specific orders. Thus making it somewhat more realistic.

[DragonShadow]

Ahhh....  i remember when I made a topic similar to this one. a while ago....

 

Balance ruins games. I hate having to use "counter units" too much. My favorite example is the SD. The empire didn't need any "tartan patrol cruisers" and stuff like that because the SD was nearly the ultimate battleship. But of course if that was all the empire got in the game it would be pretty boring. those other ships should cost effcient purposes. SD's have point-defense laser cannons allowing them to deal with fighters as well as it's complement of TIES. And they have medium and big guns to deal with everything else. Same goes for the Mon Cal cruisers except that the Rebels didn't have a lot of them for economic reasons. Just watch the movies. The rebels had a wide variety of ships. why? because they didn't have the means to produce the biggest and best ships. The empire on the other hand had little economic restraint so that's why we only see SD's in the flims. That's why it sucks that every unit it seems has a "weak against" thing.

 

And the vehicles....

An ATST ought to kill a group of soilders with one maybe twos shots and one form an ATAT. It's realistic. Then plex soilders would be nearly useless because all the ATST has to do is get the first shot. This not anyones fault it's just a shortcoming of an RTS game. In battlefront you can't stand out there in the open and shoot rockets at the ATST until your health finally gets whiddeld away by the lasers. One shot and BOOM your dead. That's why you have to take cover, get behind it, get out of the line of fire why you reload, etc. That's where RTS games fail us is because units can't really think for themselves that much. they stand there and shoot until they die unless you tell them otherwise. Maybe in future RTS games you won't have to worry about absurd problems like that but the independent thought may interfere with your specific orders. Thus making it somewhat more realistic.

 

What RTS devs should do is make special objects on the battlefield that units can "merge" with. Like in Republic commando, you hover your reticle over a door, and you can tell one of your guys to open it, or blow it up. In an RTS, you could have special structures or natural junk (rocks or groups of trees), and when you have certain kinds of units selected, you can have them "merge" with the object and take cover from enemy fire. All the object would have to do is increase their defense stat or something by a large ratio (like x3 or something). Damn, I wish I could code. Now that I got this idea, I'm obsessed with it. Maybe one of the big mods could do it (since they have experienced/knowledgeable coders).