Storm troopers are weaker than rebel troopers?

[Guest]

rebel troopers are just people that are too poor or stupid to pay thier taxes

 

 

Yes but you can still research star wars. There is more than 1000 pages at the star wars databank.

Also, if you don't know, read EU, ask Lucas, there are many ways.

I for one don't gasp at the fact rebels can beat stormtroopers. Rebels arn't working for money. Rebels are fighting for their home and life! If you killed the stormtrooper companies leader, I bet half of them would run/lose heart(like in the revolutionary war)

 

pssshhh.... no way, Rebels are fighting for same reasons the CIS was (except of course they weren't manipulated by a sithlord) to overthrow the corrupt goverment and establish a differnt one. joining the rebellion was a good way to get your life and home taken away. If you just accepted palapatines rule then everything would be fine.

 

And storm troopers would not turn around and run if their leader was killed. They train for situations like those and are mentally hardwired for obediance. Rebels would be more likely to get confused and panic. Storm troopers don't panic. They are the same as clone troopers but they live a bit longer

[Otto von Bismark]

"Rebels are fighting for same reasons the CIS was"

 

True, but the rebels didn't have the funding that the CIS recieved from the Trade Federation and other seperatist factions.

 

Ah man, I forgot to get eggs at the grocery store.

[Guest]

alwys, alwys remember to get eggs at the grocery store  ;D (check your private messeges) otto von bismarck

[Xenomorphine]

There is a difference you are apparently not getting. Roman Empire, Roman tactics, and ancient conquests ACTUALLY HAPPENED. We have historical documents, archaeological artifacts and hard physical evidence about how Roman units behaved and were used against the forces of other empires. Thus, it is not hard to create a game which incorporates some of what the reality of fighting in Roman times would have been like. Hence, Rome Total War is fairly realistic even though we are more than 2000+ years removed from the setting of the game.

 

And there is more than enough reading material, made up over the years, to make precisely the same effort for something based on the 'Star Wars' world, for precisely the same reasons.

 

Star Wars NEVER HAPPENED. It is a MADE UP Universe. Thus, you can make ANYTHING UP in terms of unit size, strength, capability, deployment, attack vs. defense ratio, you name it. How can one argue that a stormtrooper squad should be able to overpower a rebel squad when no such thing exists IN REAL LIFE? In my opinion the attack, movement, defense values of the current Star Wars units are fine. Why? Because they have no basis in reality. At all. None. Whatsoever.

 

But you forget that it's built upon real-world basics. Look at the kind of training and equipment which the US can lavish on its best Special Forces (ordinary Marines and the like would not qualify, for reasons written about below). Now give them the benefit of encasing them in body armour which can withstand kinetic rounds and nearby grenade explosions, fully enhanced and surrounding sensory input (remember how easily it looked to pick out enemies when viewing from the enhanced visual perspective of the Terminator or Predator, in their respective films?) and then raise the numbers of them to entire squads and you'll see why they should be treated as fairly special units.

 

Those kinds of things are obvious. Applying them to the world we live in is easy. That's why it seems odd to say that a few groups of unarmoured human beings with nothing more advantageous than bravado would be able to easily take them down, if ever at all.

 

Sure, there was Endor, but it looked to me like it was the stolen AT-ST which turned the tide of that battle. Apart from that, it would be broadly similar to our experience with the US in Somalia - which also failed largely because of a severe lack of heavy armour. Both were extremely confusing situations with bad intelligence being involved.

 

Still, imagine what those Special Forces soldiers could have done with laser rifles and Stormtrooper armour, if it was available!

 

By the logic above, you would be hapy to buy a game where little tiny unicorns can overpower massive, fire-breathing dragons, simply by virtue of there being no known facts to say for sure who would win. But it woudl still be a fair bet for most people to get the feeling those two foes were not being handled right, if that were ever portrayed.

 

But lets say you argue that stormtroopers should be just like normal men except with armor. I would argue that they are not normal men. The first three movies established that they are clones. So, the closest analogy for a clone would be a videotape. Know what happens when you make a copy of a videotape? The copy is not as good. And the copy of a copy of a videotape is even worse. By the time of Episode IV you now have several generations of copies and each successive generation is getting worse. That, to me, is sufficient explanation for why the stormtroopers suck, especially when compared to the clone troopers.

 

Heh, except that you'd be wrong! Lucas already confirmed that only 50% of those soldiers are clones and, even then, the clones are vastly superior, due to having several different genetic samples to pick and choose the best traits from, rather than a single donar, as seen in the last two films which we saw.

 

But even if you're making a point of them in some way not being as good, biologically, that does not detract from their level of training, indoctrination in military tactics and quality of equipment they have. However, due to the above point I made, you can't even say they're worse in biological terms.

 

We know that isn't the case, anyway, since they literally represent the elite and are not the ordinary grunts who you would normally see. There is an Imperial Army, which is made up of ordinary soldiers. Then there are the Stormtroopers, who are the Galactic Empire's version of a futuristic Waffen-SS. They're literally the best that the Empire can afford.

 

They shouldn't be seen as being beaten easily, for the same reason as a heavily armed SEAL or SAS team wouldn't be. The Empire has a lot of them, simply because it's on a glactic scale and has those sorst of resources.

 

That's why the opening scrawl to the first film openly states the Alliance has only jsut scored its first ever major victory!

 

Well, most people playing Battlefield 2 today would say its a good game. It still stands as an excellent counterpoint to your statement:

 

"That's like making a game about the recent Iraqi conflict and letting the Republican Guard have ultra-powerful armour and being able to beat Apache gunships and M1 tanks in one go, to make them 'balanced' - we all know that's ridiculous and would take away an unnecessary amount of willing suspension of disbelief."

 

Because most people playing it find that the balancing issues in the game are not "ridiculous" and do not require "an unnecessary amount of willing suspension of disbelief."

 

Perhaps I should rephrase:

 

When you're working in such a heavily researched field as attempting to portray naval space combat tactics, based in a foundation of a world which its customers would be well aware of the limitations for, then it's important to retain a decent sense of realism.

 

How many people who bought 'Battlefield 2' do you seriously believe know the difference between a T-72 and an M1, apart from how one has an American flag on it and the other won't do?

 

By contrast, people who buy this product would actually know what's likely to happen if you put an AT-AT up against Han Solo - or at least, one would hope so!

 

If all you want are some pretty fireworks and a few 'Star Wars' decorations, then you're the kind of person who would be better off simply getting 'Battlefront 2' - but if you're looking for a product which finally, after so many years, bothers to try and look at the hypotheticals of an X-Wing squadron agaisnt an ISD, then you've probably had your attention on this thing instead, wouldn't you say?

 

One only cares about pyrotechnic fantasies. The other is an attempt at militarised war gaming tactics being put in practice.

 

No, it's not a simulator, but at least something like 'TIE Fighter' showed that it's not impossible to keep things largely fun while factoring in a relatively good understanding of what would work and what wouldn't do.

 

Is 'Battlefield 2' fun? Probably. Is it seen as ridiculously unrealistic and laughable for anyone who wants to get a decent understanding of military warfare in the modern age? Sure!

 

The same goes for 'Battlefront 2'. But then, I think most of us here were hoping for less of a 'Battlefront'-with-some-RTS feel and much more of a 'Rebellion'-with-prettier-pictures-and-far-better-interface. I can say taht, because the majority of hopes and complaints which have been registered on these forums have gone along those lines. Therefore, that's the audience which this game should be looking to please, I would have thought.

 

These are not the same sorts of people who games like 'Battlefield 2' primarily cater for (which isn't to say they won't like it, but they're certainly looking for something beyond tha game's known superficiality).

[Otto von Bismark]

My my that is one massive post. Is it legal?

[Davynelord_pff]

Allow me to poke my head in for a quick comment.  I think playing the original demo doesn't reveal the true strength or weakness of either rebel or imperial troops as your only able to play short tutorials against a A.I. that is clearly not using all of it's abilities.

 

Second, If you've played one of the mods, it's not a real representation of the final game, at least I don't think so.  It's not official because the final game isn't released yet, things do change at the last second before release or even in patches later.

 

Also, don't forget that planetary bonuses can make your troops better or worse.  The combar Armor bonus gives rebels 50% damage reduction on top of the take cover ability.  Then there's the bonuses that each map gets from each planet that has a mercenary building on it.  I'm not sure which bonuses other planets would give from these buildings since tattooine's merc building is the only one we currently can get.

 

In the end, I don't think rebel troops and imperial troops will be totally equal.  At times the balance of power will constantly shift due to what parts of the galaxy and maps are under your control.  This alone totally makes the idea of both troops being equal irrelevant for the most part except probably very early in the game.

 

I just think there is a lot more to the balance of the game then simply black and white.  The intangibles make more of a difference than anything.

[noian]

rebel troopers are just people that are too poor or stupid to pay their taxes

 

 

 

pssshhh.... no way, Rebels are fighting for same reasons the CIS was (except of course they weren't manipulated by a sithlord) to overthrow the corrupt government and establish a different one. joining the rebellion was a good way to get your life and home taken away. If you just accepted palatines rule then everything would be fine.

 

And storm troopers would not turn around and run if their leader was killed. They train for situations like those and are mentally hardwired for obedience. Rebels would be more likely to get confused and panic. Storm troopers don't panic. They are the same as clone troopers but they live a bit longer

Going a bit off topic but...

somewhere I know there is a saying that goes like

'a opponent without anything to lose is a formidable opponent indeed'

Rebels had nothing to lose. If you had nothing to lose, you would want to take out someone first, wouldn't you?

2nd: Half the stormtroopers didn't like fighting. Heard of Tycho? There are many like him.

3rd: Watch the movie 'Patriot'(or the first 45 min is enough) 1. The solider didn't want to do it, after the officer died, the british solders panicked. (not trying to be offensive) Compare that to stormtroopers.

 

btw: ever use the spell check feature?(no offence)

[Darthscharnhorst2]

Going a bit off topic but...

somewhere I know there is a saying that goes like

'a opponent without anything to lose is a formidable opponent indeed'

Rebels had nothing to lose. If you had nothing to lose, you would want to take out someone first, wouldn't you?

2nd: Half the stormtroopers didn't like fighting. Heard of Tycho? There are many like him.

3rd: Watch the movie 'Patriot'(or the first 45 min is enough) 1. The solider didn't want to do it, after the officer died, the british solders panicked. (not trying to be offensive) Compare that to stormtroopers.

 

btw: ever use the spell check feature?(no offence)

 

The same could be said about many Russian soldiers and quite a few Germans towards the end of WWII.  Seeing how the empire draws a lot of inspiration from such totalitarian regimes I would imagine that deserting would be about as lethal as actual combat.  In war, both sides soliders have EVERYTHING to lose.

[Stellar_Magic]

Unfortunately you guys are all discounting the performance of stormtroopers when they boarded the Tantive IV... Talk about imperial whup a**... The kill-loss ratio there was well in the stormtroopers favor.

[WhiteSkull]

Unfortunately you guys are all discounting the performance of stormtroopers when they boarded the Tantive IV... Talk about imperial whup a**... The kill-loss ratio there was well in the stormtroopers favor.

 

 

So one battle means they are better? i mean serious your saying just ebcause they have that 1 win that it makes them sooo much better then the rebel troopers?

[Xenomorphine]

 

So one battle means they are better? i mean serious your saying just ebcause they have that 1 win that it makes them sooo much better then the rebel troopers?

 

But what have the Alliance soldiers done? Why, if they were superior, did the first film's opening scrawl state that the Alliance had only just achieved its first ever major victory, even though the organisation had been going for over twenty years or so?

[WhiteSkull]

But what have the Alliance soldiers done? Why, if they were superior, did the first film's opening scrawl state that the Alliance had only just achieved its first ever major victory, even though the organisation had been going for over twenty years or so?

 

 

there first major victory not there first ever victory there is a difrence. No one has given ANY proof that either side should be more powerfull, everyone is giving there own opinion on what they feel nothing more, the only proof we have is the rebels won the war and restored the republic.

[Teradyn_pff]

This really sounds like an argument in a day care.  There are much more intelligent people that have spent allot of time working out what is who and where is what.

Two sites you people should read all the way through are:

 

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ is mainly oriented to discuss the StarTrek vs Star Wars debate, but provides allot of information about the Empire that is relevant to this discussion.

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ a huge site that has allot of information about Star Wars in general.  This one is a must read.

[raydude]

And there is more than enough reading material, made up over the years, to make precisely the same effort for something based on the 'Star Wars' world, for precisely the same reasons.

 

No, it is not the same effort, nor is it similar. 1000 works of fiction are still fiction. Let me illustrate why. George Lucas could come out tomorrow with a work of fiction (book, movie, cartoon, whatever) in which he reveals that all the stormtroopers for Episodes IV-VI are actually clones of Jar Jar. And there would be nothing anyone can do about it. You can't cry "But that's not realistic!" because its fiction. Cries of "But that destroys all the canon you built up" would fall on deaf ears. Or, he could just come out on a TV talk show and say "Yeah, all those books about Admiral Thrawn and the jedi kids, that's all good but they are not part of the official canon of the Star Wars universe." And *poof* there goes all that canon.  The point is not whether he would actually do it. The point is that he can because its all fiction.

 

Actually, I tend to think that he *would* do it. As in, literally destroy canon. Probably when he starts up the Star Wars TV series. Why? Because he's already proven that he can with "The Ewoks Adventure" and "Ewoks: Battle for Endor" movies.

 

But you forget that it's built upon real-world basics. Look at the kind of training and equipment which the US can lavish on its best Special Forces (ordinary Marines and the like would not qualify, for reasons written about below). Now give them the benefit of encasing them in body armour which can withstand kinetic rounds and nearby grenade explosions, fully enhanced and surrounding sensory input (remember how easily it looked to pick out enemies when viewing from the enhanced visual perspective of the Terminator or Predator, in their respective films?) and then raise the numbers of them to entire squads and you'll see why they should be treated as fairly special units.

 

Fine. Lets apply real-world basics (basic military history, tactics and evolution) and see how the Empire has adapted to the changing ways of warfare over the years:

 

First example of a large-scale assault: Episode 2

 

The clone troopers execute a classic vertical envelopment. They use fast moving aerial transports to hit hard and fast and quickly move to different areas of the battle. By doing this they keep the enemy from regrouping and organizing any kind of counterattack. Bravo! This is the closest I've seen to a realistic assault (in Star Wars) by finely trained, motivated troops with a good attack plan. Btw, I like the assault transports and how they appeared by surprise. Why? Because they can skim along the ground, reducing their visibility until they are right on top of the target. Then they pop up and pounce. The battle is quickly resolved and the clone troopers win. Note however that a Jedi is leading the attack (Yoda). Its probably Yoda that came up with the attack plan but the troopers carried it off brilliantly.

 

Yoda? Yes Yoda. It is not unprecedented in military history for people to be both masters in one-on-one combat and masters in leading large masses of troops. Every samurai in ancient Japan was dedicated to all aspects of war, from individual battles to large scale maneuvering of armies. Ditto the great warriors of ancient times: Alexander, Ghengis Khan, Julius Caesar - all were great fighters AND great leaders. The trend continues into modern times as well: Rommel, Patton, Lt. Winters (from Band of Brothers) they ALL led from the front and thus were involved in the fighting at one point or another.

 

2nd example of a large scale assault:

Flash forward to Empire Strikes Back.

 

For some reason the Empire has decided to abandon vertical envelopment (or any kind of rudimentary strategy) and go straight for a frontal assault. Not only that, they advance with Imperial Walkers. These things are so tall that you can spot them from miles away, get your defenses ready, AND prepare for retreat. Not to mention you can hear them before you even see them. For all their vaunted strength the walkers still suffer at least 3 losses (that I can see from the movie). But the important point is: the Empire ALLOWS the Rebels to escape because the speed of the attack is so slow. Its like we went from the hard-hitting blitzkreig of WW2 to the slow marching pace of WW1. Real-life doesn't work like that. Real life teaches us that the pace of war has accelerated throughout history.

 

3rd example of a large scale assault:

Return of the Jedi

 

In the movie, as the transport touches down you see a glimpse of an AT-AT trying to make its way through the forest on Endor's moon. Who's the genius of a general that thought to put an AT-AT in a forest? What's happening to the leadership of this Imperial army?

 

Second, and most notable failure of the Imperial troops: they have forgotten how to work as a combined arms unit. In the real world tanks and troops work together - especially in an urban environment. The tanks never go off by themselves, and the troops never go off by themselves. You can substitute "tank" to mean any armored vehicle, be it a Bradley or Stryker. Why? Because the troops can kill enemy that are using RPGs to target the tanks in their blind spots while the tanks can kill or supress enemy behind cover.

 

So, you say that the battle for Endor turned when an AT-ST got captured. Why did it get captured in the first place? Because no Imperial troops were around the AT-ST to SHOOT at swinging wookies, that's why! The Imperial troops were getting stoned to death because they were fighting separately from the AT-STs.

 

Who's responsible for this lack of combined arms training? Could it be the same general who put an AT-AT in a forest?

 

So, judging from the three Imperial assaults it seems that the quality of Imperial troops, their tactics and leadership has gone DOWN over the years instead of up. Classic symptoms of an Empire in decline. We've seen it with the Roman Empire, the Chinese Empire, the Mongols, etc.  As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The movies make the point that it corrupts at ALL levels of government and authority.

 

Finally, you need to read "Black Hawk Down" and get a better picture of what happened in Somalia. The Rangers and Delta team were doing just fine when they stuck to their normal SOP: night assault. It worked to enhance their advantage of being able to fight at night AND it also happened to be the time when the drug-induced high of "khat" would turn into a drug-induced low. The consequence was that the drugged up Somalis were all wired up during the daytime but became lethargic and tired at night.

 

So, why did they change their SOP for this one assault? Pressure from the Command Authority (AKA the White House) for results. The potential of capturing a high-value target made the risks seem acceptable.  And the Americans had never fully realized the "day/night" cycle of the typical Somali who was chewing khat.

[raydude]

This really sounds like an argument in a day care.  There are much more intelligent people that have spent allot of time working out what is who and where is what.

Two sites you people should read all the way through are:

 

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ is mainly oriented to discuss the StarTrek vs Star Wars debate, but provides allot of information about the Empire that is relevant to this discussion.

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ a huge site that has allot of information about Star Wars in general.  This one is a must read.

 

Seriously though, all this talk about what Star Wars is based on and Star Wars canon can be blown away with just three words: The Ewoks Movie. If that's not enough then its sequel - Ewoks: Battle for Endor.

[Teradyn_pff]

The second link mentions those two movies as well.  Try reading through it all and you will understand what the author's intent is.  I do feel sorry for him though, because his self assigned task of rationalizing what goes on in the SW universe is made horribly difficult by how inconsisten Lucas is, not to mention the other "authors" who write SW fiction.

[Necro]

i disagree, i believe people fighting for they're homes, and what means most to them will ALWAYS fight better than mercenaries or soldiers who are fighting cause they were told to even though they have superior training.

[noian]

i disagree, i believe people fighting for they're homes, and what means most to them will ALWAYS fight better than mercenaries or soldiers who are fighting cause they were told to even though they have superior training.

 

 

Finally, Someone who understands/agreees with me!

Edited January 25, 2006 by noian

[Jmaster3265]

Really? I have heard that the rebel troopers are better than storm troopers?!?! WTF

 

if this is true my respect and hope for Empire at War has just taken the ewok express down into the sarlacc pit.

 

 

Heard? From.....? Why don't you actually try the demo for yourself and see?  :

 

p.s Its just a demo that are still adjusting and tweaking the final version....

[noian]

 

Heard? From.....? Why don't you actually try the demo for yourself and see?  :

 

p.s Its just a demo that are still adjusting and tweaking the final version....

I agree to this too

[Guest]

The same could be said about many Russian soldiers and quite a few Germans towards the end of WWII.  Seeing how the empire draws a lot of inspiration from such totalitarian regimes I would imagine that deserting would be about as lethal as actual combat.  In war, both sides soliders have EVERYTHING to lose.

 

but storm troopers are brainwashed fanaticlly loyal drones with no other purpose than to fight. They're pretty much clones. All those soilders in WWII had families and whatnot that they actually cared about. Storm troopers.... didn't.

[Sergeant Bob]

The main problem is that Stormtroopers are drones.  They seem to be incappable of exercising any initiative and seem to mainly rely on orders from on high.  Rebel troops from what little is seen seem to exercise some initiative although this seems to mostly be seen among rebel pilots.

[Xenomorphine]

there first major victory not there first ever victory there is a difrence.

 

Fine, so they managed a couple of tiny little engagements. That hardly says to me that their soldiers or equipment is better than Imperial standard or their tactics, either.

 

No one has given ANY proof that either side should be more powerful, everyone is giving there own opinion on what they feel nothing more, the only proof we have is the rebels won the war and restored the republic.

 

Which was mainly down to poor planning on behalf of one Emperior Palpatine.

 

He should have allowed the fleet to engage the Alliance ships at Endor. They would never have got close enough to achieve what they did and, even then, there seemed to only be the Wing Commanders left! A wing is several squadrons. They had all been wiped out, by the looks of it.

 

If you go by EU, they had to fanwank it so that the Emperor had some sort of all-pervasive will which controlled them all and, even taking that away, the battle supposedly raged on for many hours. It was only after whole worlds began simultaneously rebelling that the Alliance had a chance and, even then, the reborn Emperor appearing swiftly made them turn back sides again.

 

The point is, the Alliance is forced to adopt running skirmish battles and retreat from bases whenever discovered, for a very good reason: Their equipment and personnel simply are not as good.

 

i disagree, i believe people fighting for they're homes, and what means most to them will ALWAYS fight better than mercenaries or soldiers who are fighting cause they were told to even though they have superior training.

 

Gee, I guess Nazi Germany or Imperial Rome never managed to conquer anywhere, then, hmm?

[Xenomorphine]

No, it is not the same effort, nor is it similar. 1000 works of fiction are still fiction. Let me illustrate why. George Lucas could come out tomorrow with a work of fiction (book, movie, cartoon, whatever) in which he reveals that all the stormtroopers for Episodes IV-VI are actually clones of Jar Jar. And there would be nothing anyone can do about it. You can't cry "But that's not realistic!" because its fiction. Cries of "But that destroys all the canon you built up" would fall on deaf ears. Or, he could just come out on a TV talk show and say "Yeah, all those books about Admiral Thrawn and the jedi kids, that's all good but they are not part of the official canon of the Star Wars universe." And *poof* there goes all that canon.  The point is not whether he would actually do it. The point is that he can because its all fiction.

 

Actually, I tend to think that he *would* do it. As in, literally destroy canon. Probably when he starts up the Star Wars TV series. Why? Because he's already proven that he can with "The Ewoks Adventure" and "Ewoks: Battle for Endor" movies.

 

None of that matters, since we're discussing the fundamentals of applying the known statistics and limitations of technology into a wargame environment.

 

Fine. Lets apply real-world basics (basic military history, tactics and evolution) and see how the Empire has adapted to the changing ways of warfare over the years:

 

Uh-uh-uh! We aren't commenting on command structures. We're commenting on technology!

 

First example of a large-scale assault: Episode 2

 

The clone troopers execute a classic vertical envelopment. They use fast moving aerial transports to hit hard and fast and quickly move to different areas of the battle. By doing this they keep the enemy from regrouping and organizing any kind of counterattack. Bravo! This is the closest I've seen to a realistic assault (in Star Wars) by finely trained, motivated troops with a good attack plan. Btw, I like the assault transports and how they appeared by surprise. Why? Because they can skim along the ground, reducing their visibility until they are right on top of the target. Then they pop up and pounce. The battle is quickly resolved and the clone troopers win. Note however that a Jedi is leading the attack (Yoda). Its probably Yoda that came up with the attack plan but the troopers carried it off brilliantly.

 

In a real world, I would have expected those transports to have been identified on radar or by patrols, well before they arrived on the surface. Not to mention the cruisers in orbit, which got them there! However, it was a unique situation and I haven't any idea what that world's defences were meant to have been.

 

Yoda? Yes Yoda. It is not unprecedented in military history for people to be both masters in one-on-one combat and masters in leading large masses of troops. Every samurai in ancient Japan was dedicated to all aspects of war, from individual battles to large scale maneuvering of armies. Ditto the great warriors of ancient times: Alexander, Ghengis Khan, Julius Caesar - all were great fighters AND great leaders. The trend continues into modern times as well: Rommel, Patton, Lt. Winters (from Band of Brothers) they ALL led from the front and thus were involved in the fighting at one point or another.

 

Indeed, although I could think of several ways to have prevented them, but then, I'm far more interested in Empier era stuff.

 

2nd example of a large scale assault:

Flash forward to Empire Strikes Back.

 

For some reason the Empire has decided to abandon vertical envelopment (or any kind of rudimentary strategy) and go straight for a frontal assault.

 

You're forgetting about shields.

 

If they could have done a bombing run, they would have done so. Instead, they required surface units. There's a mass of that sort of discussion which went on over at the www.theforce.net forums.

 

Not only that, they advance with Imperial Walkers. These things are so tall that you can spot them from miles away, get your defenses ready, AND prepare for retreat. Not to mention you can hear them before you even see them. For all their vaunted strength the walkers still suffer at least 3 losses (that I can see from the movie). But the important point is: the Empire ALLOWS the Rebels to escape because the speed of the attack is so slow. Its like we went from the hard-hitting blitzkreig of WW2 to the slow marching pace of WW1. Real-life doesn't work like that. Real life teaches us that the pace of war has accelerated throughout history.

 

Going by what has been written about them, AT-ATs tended to ended many engagements before they even got started, simply by virtue of power and size. Nobody had ever brought one down before that time. They were as much of a psychological weapon as anything else. Where were the rebels meant to head to, anyway? Space? Definitely! That's part of what the assault was meant to accomplish: Drive them into space to get caught by the Star Destroyers ("Our first catch of the day!").

 

The Soviets are depicted using similar herding tactics in 'The Hunt For Red October'. No reason why it wouldn't work in the future, too.

 

It failed because they didn't expect an ion cannon to be placed there.

 

You are forgetting, however, the several AT-STs and speeder bikes which were zooming ahead and very probably strafing the forward lines. The AT-ATs get the screen exposure, but that's all. They were walking artillery, more than anything else.

 

3rd example of a large scale assault:

Return of the Jedi

 

In the movie, as the transport touches down you see a glimpse of an AT-AT trying to make its way through the forest on Endor's moon. Who's the genius of a general that thought to put an AT-AT in a forest? What's happening to the leadership of this Imperial army?

 

(A) How do we know the entire planet's surface is woodland?

(B) Why is the AT-AT bad? It seems to be perfectly capable of walking around! Don't think it's going to care about crushing a few trees out of the way.

© It was probably being escorted. It's being used to ferry an extremely important prisoner around in a shell of tough armour. The AT-AT suffices and may well have been placed there as an interim measure (could have been destined for another world and was set down there temporarily, until the next barge arrives).

(D) Could also have been put there as part of a training mission for that sort of environment and jsut happened to be the only unit available to transport the prisoner to another place area.

(E) Note that when they know there could be trouble, they don't use the AT-AT! They use AT-STs then. They don't bring that thing over.

 

Second, and most notable failure of the Imperial troops: they have forgotten how to work as a combined arms unit. In the real world tanks and troops work together - especially in an urban environment. The tanks never go off by themselves, and the troops never go off by themselves. You can substitute "tank" to mean any armored vehicle, be it a Bradley or Stryker. Why? Because the troops can kill enemy that are using RPGs to target the tanks in their blind spots while the tanks can kill or supress enemy behind cover.

 

Did they think they'd have to be facing killer koala bears? No. When they figure it out, do they have any reason to think they have RPGs? No. Do they have any reason to believe the small tactical team they have been sent to round up have access to that weaponry? No. Do they find any on them? No.

 

They've told their vehicles to make a big show of force and patrol on a search and destroy mission profile through the immediate surrounding area. They're also going at a rate of speed which is faster than soldiers would be able to keep up with. There could also be soldiers escorting them, but ones who have been incapacitated and neutralised by the time we next see the vehicles on screen.

 

So, you say that the battle for Endor turned when an AT-ST got captured. Why did it get captured in the first place? Because no Imperial troops were around the AT-ST to SHOOT at swinging wookies, that's why! The Imperial troops were getting stoned to death because they were fighting separately from the AT-STs.

 

Who's responsible for this lack of combined arms training? Could it be the same general who put an AT-AT in a forest?

 

Tell me, why would they have a reason to think that a wookie would be nearby, let alone show presence of mind to be allied to the little furry creatures and swing around on trees or even know how to operate one ofthose machines?

 

So far as the Imperials were concerned, the various natives were launching a spontaneous attack which the rebels had nothing to do with.

 

So, judging from the three Imperial assaults it seems that the quality of Imperial troops, their tactics and leadership has gone DOWN over the years instead of up. Classic symptoms of an Empire in decline. We've seen it with the Roman Empire, the Chinese Empire, the Mongols, etc.  As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The movies make the point that it corrupts at ALL levels of government and authority.

 

Except that it's not in decline, as I showed above.

 

There is more politics involved, which will lead to some bad decisions. Look at Nazi Germany and what happened there as time went on. But Nazi Germany itself was still a formidable fighting machine. It just suffered from some time-critical strategic mistakes.

 

The quality of Imperial troops and their equipment, I say, shows no signs of being in decline. They might have got more arrogant, but were still more than capable of annihilating their opposition.

 

The problem, for them, was that they were not built and designed around fighting the Alliance. They were suited for a Cold War sort of opponent. But engagements, like that on Hoth, were successes. They won. They should have won at Endor, too, but it was for artistic reasons that they did not. Not anything down to the quality of their forces, which still numbered well in excess of what would have been needed to take on and finish the rest of the fleet.

 

Finally, you need to read "Black Hawk Down" and get a better picture of what happened in Somalia. The Rangers and Delta team were doing just fine when they stuck to their normal SOP: night assault. It worked to enhance their advantage of being able to fight at night AND it also happened to be the time when the drug-induced high of "khat" would turn into a drug-induced low. The consequence was that the drugged up Somalis were all wired up during the daytime but became lethargic and tired at night.

 

So, why did they change their SOP for this one assault? Pressure from the Command Authority (AKA the White House) for results. The potential of capturing a high-value target made the risks seem acceptable.  And the Americans had never fully realized the "day/night" cycle of the typical Somali who was chewing khat.

 

I've also heard that one of the biggest problems they faced was a lack of political winllingness to put heavily armoured vehicles, such as tanks, in the area, which they would have used to launch a far more effective rescue operation.

 

None of which alters the fact that they were also an elite group of soldiers who had received inappropriate orders based on political pressure, bad intelligence and even worse conclusions from it, which is what makes it an applicable analogy.

[WhiteSkull]

Xenomorphine sevral things, one the troops with vader in ep4 where the elite storm troopers the best of the best and thats why they took the ship so easy, not ALL troopers where that good.

 

Also the rebels did not hide and do hit and runs because of weak personal, they did it cause of weaker ships, but more important weaker numbers, the empire had millions of troops while the rebels probly less then 50k to start.