How realistic are the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi

[R2-Opus2]

Never said either that harrassing equaled attack and destroy with those fighters. I know they didn't fight that way and I'm in agreeance the Emperor wanted to take his sweet time.

 

And true as well, Armchair Piet does run that risk of electroshock therapy early I'll grant you that. But now there's another time factor in terms of the distance between the two fleets as they begin to close on one another (was there or wasn't there time? i.e. presuming rebel fleet is approaching at flank speeds). It probably would be overkill to deploy bombers, however this original plan of the Emperor's...the slow methodical destruction of the Rebel fleet by the superlaser, becomes questionable at a given distance.

 

Questionable as an armchair commander at that point mind you.

 

In Piet's own mind though, I seriously have to wonder that if they were having difficulty with their TIEs already in the field, why he didn't deploy the rest of them to protect his fleet (even if they weren't used to assault, just protect). Course, if the Emperor forbid him or didn't explicity allow for that (the overconfidence thing again + that maybe there was still fighters out there in sufficient quantity not to consider it), it probably never dawned on him or the other ISD commanders.

 

Part of this in my mind also goes back to how seriously they wanted the Rebels wiped off the map. If they were really serious (paying very close attention to the battle), I might have thought Piet could have been given some leeway. Instead they wanted the slow torturous way of dispatching them with the laser.

[vakundok]

Never said either that harrassing equaled attack and destroy with those fighters. I know they didn't fight that way and I'm in agreeance the Emperor wanted to take his sweet time.

You wandered why there were no Bombers among the fighters those attacked the rebel fleet. There were no Bombers because Bombers could accidentally destroy one or more large ships.

And true as well, Armchair Piet does run that risk of electroshock therapy early I'll grant you that. But now there's another time factor in terms of the distance between the two fleets as they begin to close on one another (was there or wasn't there time? i.e. presuming rebel fleet is approaching at flank speeds). It probably would be overkill to deploy bombers, however this original plan of the Emperor's...the slow methodical destruction of the Rebel fleet by the superlaser, becomes questionable at a given distance.

The rebel fleet approached to close range. (The novelisation mentions this situation as a tank duel from twenty steps, so the fleets were likely only a few kilometers from each other.) Then Lando wanted the ships to move even closer to prevent the DS from firing at them. It means that even when the fleets were quite close, the DS had no targeting problems.

 

So the situation from Piet's point of view:

They have come closer and firing on my ships. Has it changed the plan and gave me the right to quickly wipe them out? Hmm, the DS is still firing, so the emperor's plan for them is still working. Are they dangereous? No. At that range they will not hold for long even if we do not concentrate our return fire. Holy shit! Since we are not really endangered if I order a concentrated return fire, it would be desobeying a direct order without any real reason.

In Piet's own mind though, I seriously have to wonder that if they were having difficulty with their TIEs already in the field, why he didn't deploy the rest of them to protect his fleet (even if they weren't used to assault, just protect). Course, if the Emperor forbid him or didn't explicity allow for that (the overconfidence thing again + that maybe there was still fighters out there in sufficient quantity not to consider it), it probably never dawned on him or the other ISD commanders.

First af all, it assumes that they had other fighters in reserve. And when the DS shield dropped the rebel fighters were followed by Ties numbering twice their amount. So nearly at the end of the battle we can assume a 2 to 1 numerical superiority for the Ties. (And it suggests an even higher ratio at the start of the battle.) However this did not prevent the rebel fighters from reaching the reactor shaft in numbers, so likely it would also not prevent them from quickly destroying any Bombers launched late in the battle.

Part of this in my mind also goes back to how seriously they wanted the Rebels wiped off the map. If they were really serious (paying very close attention to the battle)' date=' I might have thought Piet could have been given some leeway. Instead they wanted the slow torturous way of dispatching them with the laser.[/quote']No. Vader, Jerjerrod (according to the novelisation) and likely Piet as well wanted to destroy them. But they were all he emperor's subordinates and the emperor wanted only Skywalker to be tortured by the slow extermination of the rebel fleet.

 

Sorry, but I simply cannot see your problem with the battle, and/or Piet.

[the_mask]

Because Luke had to come to the dark side willingly. And by showing him how his friends were getting slaughtered, the Emperor wanted to "give Luke the chance" to save them, by declaring himself the Emperor's new scholar.

[igorimp]

Irrelevant.

 

Once Luke took up his lightsaber against Vader, the Emperor lost his attention on the fleet as it became irrelevant - Vader was now the one to cause Luke's hate. Effectively, if Timothy Zahn is to be trusted in his novel, the Emperor would have lossened his "force mind grip", thus releasing his fleet of the leash to destroy the enemy, rather then risk having a dangerous fleet destroy his forces by not allowing them to fire.

 

Plus, Piett's "keep them from escaping" order sounds to me like "blast any ship that tries moving away from the Death Star", which is what the entire Rebel fleet did - thus becoming a valid target.

 

You say Piett was scared of the Emperor into not fireing. Since he was there when Ozzel "played his harf" because he underestimated the Rebels, I doubt Piett would have allowed himself the luxury of allowing the enemy to have a chance to destroy his fleet by thinking they were "unimportant". Shots of the battle show Star Destroyers fireing as much as Rebel starships after battle begins at point-blank range.

 

Furthurmore, Piett and the entire Imperial command staff would have to be stupid, and here I mean *REALLY STUPID* to just sit around not doing anything as the Rebel fleet systematically took out one ISD after another, and at the same time blocking the Death Star fireing ability. What you are saying by this is that the Imperials did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

 

As we see in the movies, the Imperial fleet did, in fact, move towards the Death Star (as the Executor was VERY CLOSE to the DS as it plunged down by the gravity), which suggests that their fleet was fighting them forward to force them into Death Star's fireing field of vision.

 

I've made all this in the tactical analysis you can find some pages back, but I've putten the page down for reconstruction - I'm doing a much more detailed report, which I'll put up soon.

[vakundok]

Once Luke took up his lightsaber against Vader, the Emperor lost his attention on the fleet as it became irrelevant - Vader was now the one to cause Luke's hate.

This is irrevelant, since he did not give a new order to the fleet, so Piet was not informed that he could then destroy the rebel fleet.

Plus, Piett's "keep them from escaping" order sounds to me like "blast any ship that tries moving away from the Death Star", which is what the entire Rebel fleet did - thus becoming a valid target.

Maybe it sounds like, but it is not. It is instead "force them to remain in front of the superlaser" (after the superlaser as the emperor's plan was revealed). At the opening stage the rebel fleet was between the DS and the Executor. When the rebel fleet moved toward the imperial (and likely toward the Executor), it remained in the line of sight of the superlaser.

You say Piett was scared of the Emperor into not fireing. Since he was there when Ozzel "played his harf" because he underestimated the Rebels

Ozzel did not exactly underestimate the rebels. (Side note: in the fourth draft of the shooting script Vader previously told him to snake upon the rebel base and killed him because he disobeyed that order.)(Actually he did not even make a mistake' date=' since the shield was already set up and the evacuation was in progress.)

I doubt Piett would have allowed himself the luxury of allowing the enemy to have a chance to destroy his fleet by thinking they were "unimportant".

And by thinking he would otherwise disobey the emperor's order?

Shots of the battle show Star Destroyers fireing as much as Rebel starships after battle begins at point-blank range.

Undoubtedly. When the rebel fleet arrived in point-blank range (and became obscured from the Death Star), the task of the imperial fleet changed to the destruction of the rebel fleet. Only it was already too late.

Furthurmore, Piett and the entire Imperial command staff would have to be stupid, and here I mean *REALLY STUPID* to just sit around not doing anything as the Rebel fleet systematically took out one ISD after another, and at the same time blocking the Death Star fireing ability. What you are saying by this is that the Imperials did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

In the novelisation (when the fleets were close and Calrissian wanted them to move even closer), even Ackbar complained that they knew nothing about the tactic of point-blank combat. You label Piet and the entire imperial command staff *REALLY STUPID* because they were unable to conquer a completely new tactic from a very difficult situation. Before I agreed I would like you to present a plan which would work when the enemy ships are inside of your formation. If you cannot create such a plan within a few minutes, you will also deserve your label of *REALLY STUPID* just as myself.

As we see in the movies' date=' the Imperial fleet did, in fact, move towards the Death Star (as the Executor was VERY CLOSE to the DS as it plunged down by the gravity), which suggests that their fleet was fighting them forward to force them into Death Star's fireing field of vision.[/quote']First af all, it is unsure whether the Executor was pulled by the gravity or not. (Actually a lower than 1g gravity cannot cause the rapid turn we saw for such a large object.) The filming of her way to the death contained a few cut, so its lenght (in time) cannot be determined. (Actually the filming time is the minimum time, so the closest possible position.) And do not forget that the DS also moved at that time. Whether it was a simply turn (toward the moon) or a more complicated movement (or even followed the rebel fleet getting closer to the imperial) is unknown. Besides, we have absolutely no sign of any movement of the imperial fleet prior to the loss of the DS shield. (And there was no reason to move, as well.) When the DS shield lost, the rebel ships were already among the imperials, so if the imperial fleet had moved closer to the DS after the loss of the shield, they would have left rebel ships behind them, which did not happen. (At least there was no sign of such a situation.)

I've made all this in the tactical analysis you can find some pages back' date=' but I've putten the page down for reconstruction - I'm doing a much more detailed report, which I'll put up soon. [/quote']It will be good to see.

[BoShek]

I think vakundok is making a strong case here. The Imperial Fleet was effectively ordered to stand down. Piett encountered a new tactic but had his hands tied by the emperors *personal* orders backed up by the threat of execution if he so much as made the impression that he disobeyed. Just imagine the consequences if Piett and Palpi had surivived but the emperor was convinced Piett had spoiled the turning of Luke to the dark side ... Alas, history provides us with plenty examples of officers following suicidal orders out of complete loyality to some madman.

 

So basically, the combined firepower of the Imperial Fleet is of no use if they do not dare use it.

 

Something else I noticed is the assumed kill ratio of imperial vs. rebel fighters of 2:1 derived from Yavin 4. This strikes me as far too low. I remember reading somewhere (the X-Wing novel series?) a ratio of *7* to 1 for X-Wings vs. Tie-Fighters. Even if the Imps had mostly Interceptors at Endor, 2:1 strikes me as too low. Besides I also read (definitely in those books this time) that imperial pilots were basically cannon fodder receiving little training and beeing kept close to the edge psychologically to make them more aggressive. That´s why noone bothered to give them shields or decent life support.

 

This of course contradicts ANH. I understand we are supposed to see the movies as the ultimate source for facts which brings me to the ultimate unassailable point:

 

The Rebels won in ROTJ so they can´t have been outgunned to the point of leaving them no chance. See ?

[SOCL]

Okay, I know this is rather off-topic, but as the Grand Imperator of BEAK it is my responsibility to point this out: Piett is spelled with two t's, not one! Piett, not Piet. Good job, BoShek, on your last post with the correct spelling of Piett; you win honorary BEAK Imperial citizenship.

 

Alright then, clear off! Carry on!

[R2-Opus2]

Yea I had trouble with Piett. I knew there was either two "i's two "e's or two "ts' so I left it at one each figuring you guys would know who I meant

 

The Rebels won in ROTJ so they can´t have been outgunned to the point of leaving them no chance. See ?

 

This is kind of where I was aiming to address the fine line of retreating or remaining. I do not think Ackbar would have remained if he had not many fighters with decent punch left...Otherwise all he has is 7 or so large enough ships to ram ISDs with if it came to that plus any they took out with their concentrated barrages (I would argue he'd be lucky to knock out a little over half a dozen (maybe a few more through ramming) with insufficient fighter support just with his heavy cap ships). Not enough to be to be worth a suicide attempt especially when the DS shield was up.

 

While all that close duking is taking place between the fleets, he has to closely monitor his active squadrons so that when the shield does fall at least a couple squads can be diverted. Even if they expected to lose, I think that point had to have been lurking in his decision to stay besides simply trusting in Calrissian's judgement.

[igorimp]

Read it and weep. The semi-ultimate analysis of Endor.

 

http://www.geocities.com/imperial_military/endor/analysis.htm

 

God. This is going to provoke more responses then a national broadcast of a puppy being skinned alive...

[Guest Scathane]

What can I say? Brilliant comes to mind..., but then again, so does get a life...

 

All pun aside, though, I think it's becoming a great web page, igorimp... I feel you should be nominated for an Oscar in the category-to-be-created "Best Movie Scene Web Analysis".

[BoShek]

Okay, I know this is rather off-topic, but as the Grand Imperator of BEAK it is my responsibility to point this out: Piett is spelled with two t's, not one! Piett, not Piet. Good job, BoShek, on your last post with the correct spelling of Piett; you win honorary BEAK Imperial citizenship.

 

Alright then, clear off! Carry on!

 

Hooray, I did something right ! Me good!

 

Also, great work on the analysis igorimp. Question is, what conclusion can be derived from it?

[igorimp]

I've just finished reviewing Return of the Jedi with a notebook, taking note of certain events. This is what I've come up with.

 

When exiting hyperspace, the Rebel fleet is positioned with the Death Star very far, at the left-upper edge of the huge Endor moon. After going towards it, the fleet turns 180° and finds the Imperial fleet right behind them - not hiding on the far side of the moon as the Emperor suggested.

 

Immediatly after this, the Rebel fleet is overrun by TIEs composed of 9 flights of four fighters each. This totals 36, half of them Interceptors, the other half fighters. Keep in mind this only shows how many fighters were heading DIRECTLY for the Falcon. The actual number must have been quite bigger (with the Rebel fleet being more wider in size).

 

Another point here, in the same scene a TIE interceptor right before the Falcon is some 3 cm's in width (and being some 4 meters wide) while the Executor is ~2000 m wide (or 7,5 cm's screen width). I have no idea (and if someone has, please speak up) as to wheather can we calculate the distance between the TIE and the Executor, cause' it would give us some info on the readiness of the Imperial fleet.

 

Next, there is a scene (just before Lando's "Come on, Han, don't let me down..." line) where an A-wing flys over an Mon Cal being hunted by TIEs. This scene shows TWO ISD's in the distance with their engines turned (going away). Although the entire Mon Cal isn't visible, it's wing is definetly getting smaller with distance. This means, short of a possibilty of a Mon Cal cruiser with inverted V-shape wings, that the cruiser was moving after the ISD's.

 

This supports my old claim of the Rebel fleet's actions: in order to negate DS's fireing capability, they had to move inside the first line of Imperial ships and then turn around to follow them, thus keeping them between their ships and the Death Star - but at the same time moving back towards the DS; which is confirmed by Executor being drawn into the Death Star's gravity in short time. This also means that the Rebel's were probabbly successful in avoiding the "back" line of the Star Destroyers, the once who were the most far away back. We can assume some 8 of them at least were never involved in direct combat.

 

As for fighter casualties, I've counted the dead fighters seen in the movie. They total very small: 2 TIE fighters (1 from collision), 10 TIE interceptors (2 from collision), 3 A-wings (1 from collision), 3 X-wings, 1 Y-wing. This is laughably small since we know there were at least 500+ Rebel and 1500+ Imperial fighters present.

 

Still, taking out those dead from collision, we get a very good kill ratio (which is even lower then A New Hopes 2:1). With 9 TIEs / 6 Wings, the ratio is 1,5. Even with those dead form collision (some with Death Star walls, others by various ships, the rating is 1,7.

 

Someone mentioned X-wing novel kill ratio of 7:1. That novel is based on LucasArts highly unrealistic X-wing game where (and I've mentioned this a few pages back) I've destroyed 43 TIE interceptors and a Star Destroyer flying one Y-wing without any other Rebel craft in the area.

 

Either that kind of a rating is just insane, or the Rebel's Rogue squadron is highly incompetent (destroying only 2 TIEs for each their craft lost). Joke aside, that squadron is supposed to be *elite*, so you CAN give them a higher kill ratio, but anything beyond 3:1 can be considered a very poor joke.

 

Another point is that their seem to be much more TIE interceptors then fighters visible in the movie, although this could just mean we saw the more interesting parts of the fight. I wouldn't suggest that there were more ints then fighs there.

 

Last point refers to battle length. Watching the battle very carefully, I was really surprised at how fast everything happens. I talked about 2 hours at the begining, now I'm thinking about 30 minutes. This is how I came to this number:

 

By lining all important events in the speed and order with which they occured, I've created a line of events which goes: 1) arrival of the fleet, 2) Piett's attack position, 3) DS's first shot, 4) DS's second shot, 5) Point blank range attack, 6) Shield generator destruction, 7) Executor's destruction (which we can consider the end of battle).

 

If we follow Technical Guide to Vehicles and Vessels which says DS II recharges at "a matter of minutes" (let's take 5 minutes for sake of argument), I've measured that there were about 6 minutes between the Rebels arrival and Piett's order to hold position. A few more minutes later, DS fires and five minutes later does it again. Just a minute after that, the two fleets join in battle at close range. They remain at that close range for about 9-10 minutes after which the shield is down and in the next five minutes, the Executor is destroyed.

 

By wild estimation that puts the battle length at 25-30 minutes. More intrestingly for me is the fact that this would make both fleets in full battle contact for ~15 minutes.

 

I've also noted two *little* flops on side of the filmmakers which I've saved for the end and your enjoyment.

 

- After he plants explosives in the bunker, Han runs out of the bunker for some three meters and then jumps in the first bushes. The whole bunker explodes followed by an even bigger secondary explosion of the entire shield generator which takes about 50 acres of surrounding woodside. The scene returns to smiling Han Solo. Guess nobody told him his dead, along with everything that was within two kilometers.

 

- Just after the Rebel fleet turns back from the Death Star and TIEs start swarming all over the place there's the big panorama of the entire Rebel fleet (the one I've used in the Tactical analysis) and it shows four Nebulon-B frigates... ALL of them MOVING BACKWARDS. I've rerun the scene in disbelief several times (since it is confusing because of their shape which side is forward), but their is no mistake - THEY MOVE BACKWARDS.

 

Hope you enjoyed the techno-babble. Onwards with criticizm.

[SOCL]

Impressive, igorimp...most impressive. You should work for Dr. Saxton and the Technical Commentaries. As a matter of fact, I suggest you e-mail him about your own commentary and perhaps you can both join forces to make the ultimate Endor analysis! But really, it is quiter impressive, igorimp!

[R2-Opus2]

Yea, those ships you had circled in purple in your first picture as possible B-Wings, the same one I was using as a reference in a couple posts, I couldn't tell for certain if they were two more Nebulon Bs facing the viewer, hence the odd profile. Its hard to guage the perspective in a few instances.

[Jahled]

In the book of ROTJ it says the 'Forces of the Empire were plunged into confusion upon the death of the Emperor,' because of the mental control/force he exerted over his forces. (Think C'Both in the Thrawn books) so I reckon it matters little what obvious overwelming firepower the Empire had at Endor, because according to GL as soon as the Emperor died the navy present at Endor were rendered useless; so great was his mental hold over his forces.

 

...Jahled casually tosses his calculator over his sholder...

[igorimp]

In teory, yes.

 

However, do not forget that the shield generator was destroyed before the Emperor's death. In fact, there were only about five minutes of battle after his death in which time the Executor was destroyed. Movie shows the Imperial fleet much dwindled long before that time (in the 10+ minutes of battle before his death).

 

What I'm saying is that the firepower of the fleet would have pounded the Rebels to the point of leaving just a few ships by the time the Emperor "played his harf". The fact that it was the Imperial fleet that was reduced to a few ships is what is unrealistic about the battle...

[Beast]

I believe in the Novel "darksaber" it is mentioned that the first DS had a recharge time of about one hour on its Superlaser and the DSII could fire every 15 minutes so that would increase the timeframe from the battle a little. But the only sensible argument i can bring into this discussion is that both fleets where very close to the DS when the Rebel fighters began their Trench Run. Perhaps the Rebelfleet anticipating the DS destruction withdrew from the battle and the imperial fleet allowed them to back-off as they where under direct orders by the Emperor not to interfere, when Wedge and Lando blew up the DS the imperial fleet didnt have enough time to distance themself from the resulting explosion and a number of ISD where destroyed/crippled. Seriously reducing their strength.

 

But what strikes me as odd is the fact that nobody seems to bother luke while he's dragging vader to the shuttle to escape the DS. After wedge and Lando destroy the reactor they have barely enough time to escape the resulting explosion, while Luke has all the time to drag Vader halfway around the DS and then claiming a shuttle and departing without any interferance.

[R2-Opus2]

The fact that it was the Imperial fleet that was reduced to a few ships is what is unrealistic about the battle

 

Yea that's that whole Force thing again there that makes it unrealistic if you get right down to it. Otherwise I would argue that the Imperial commanders are just as adept as the opposition's commanders to improvise when needed (or at least should be if any of them had engaged Rebels before w/out the Emperor's "supervision"). The thing that hampers Piett though is his orginial orders...they apparently left little room for reinterpretation.

 

While I know the movie's elapsed time of the events appears fast, I wonder if those times are to be taken that literally or not for the battle.

 

As for none of the DS personel bothering Luke as he's taking Vader to his shuttle, i don't think, especially after the Emperor died and his subsequent influence over his forces died with him, that there were any officers looking to make a name for themselves by interfering such as the one Luke surrendered to on the planet (there's a cool side story about that in one of the rpg books). And with all the walls coming in on everyone onboard, escape is on everyone's mind by that point. Heck, I don't know if they even had time to turn their head in a double take fashion to verify what they were seeing heh

[Jahled]

But what strikes me as odd is the fact that nobody seems to bother luke while he's dragging vader to the shuttle to escape the DS. After wedge and Lando destroy the reactor they have barely enough time to escape the resulting explosion, while Luke has all the time to drag Vader halfway around the DS and then claiming a shuttle and departing without any interferance.

 

Oh indeed! I've often hoped to see that 'cut-footage' of Luke asking a passing Imperial 'to give him a hand,' because 'Vader is so bloody heavy, oh and you might as well hop in because this DS is about to blow!'

 

Passing Imperial: 'So you just killed the Emperor?'

 

Luke: {Puffing heavily} 'Well, it was my dad, really!'

 

Passing Imperial: 'Say why is Lord Vader glowing blue?'

 

etc...

[Guest Scathane]

Well, you could look at it another way: would you stop someone who has just been in a skirmish with both the Emperor as well as Darth Vader and survived the exercise? I believe one would be especially reluctant on such a course of action when s/he realizes both the Emperor and Darth Vader didn't survive that very same exercise... I can live with the notion of the Lukester leaving without encountering any trouble...

 

By the way, if anything else, he could have force-tricked anyone that would have tried to stop him:

 

Passing Imperial: "You there! Halt! Where are you going with Lord Vader's dead body?!

 

Luke: {Waving his hand}: "This is not the 'Lord Vader's dead body' you're looking for. On your way."

 

Passing Imperial: "This is not the Lord Vader's dead body I'm looking for. On your way."

Edited September 22, 2003 by Scathane

[vakundok]

Notes:

(First of all, I have only the original on VHS and the SE saved from TV, so the ship counts may be higher.)

1. Neither Han, nor Leia worried about the rebel fleet when they saw the Executor with two ISDs. This suggests that the rebel fleet was supposed to be able to get through them.

2. When the rebel fleet starts, at least two unidentified class of ships can be seen. One of them is somewhat similar to a Bulk Cruiser, but not too similar. A third ship is visible between the Home one and the transports when the Falcon passes them. This ship is misidentified as a (modified) corellian corvette, but newer resources show that it is actually the ship that can be seen later in the battle. (At least, the same type.) This ship is the so called Y- Head corvette and there is no official data about it as long as I know. (Its production name was RotJ bg ship. Likely bg=background.)

3. Within the base we saw a screen which most likely showed the rebel fleet approaching. What Leia said suggests that the rebel fleet was still in hyperspace at that time. This means that the hiding imperial fleet got a warning before the rebel fleet actually arrived, so it had more than enough time to orbit the moon.

4. As I wrote earlier, the Falcon was accompanied by5 X- wings, 4 B- wings, 5 A- wings and 8 Y- wings. This group led the initial assault and left left the large cruisers behind. However, after they turned back we saw the cruisers from the front and there were many fighters those started to turn after the Home One started it. (Part of them were the fighters very close from Ackbar's view.) This means that Lando's group was actually a separated (and likely elit) group of the rebel fighters and the other fighters provided fighter escort for the fleet.

5. The novelisation says that the imperial fleet circled the rebels from two directions (sectors PB-4 and RT-23), however in the movie there was only one wave (sector MG-7 or MV-7, I cannot tell you).

...

6. When Lando finally attacked the DS, he was only accompanied by 2 X-wings, 2- A wings and one Y- wing. They were chased by three Ties (one of them collided) and three Interceptors. One X- wing was destroyed, the two A-wings and the Y- wing turned back followed by two Ties and one Interceptor. So, while the novelisation says about 20 rebel and 40 imperial fighters suggesting a 2 to 1 ratio, the case was 1 to 1. This also implies that by the time the loss of the DS shield Lando's (likely elit) group suffered 77% losses. Also, after the said fighters turned back, we saw two X- wings (and one Tie) in the cruiser battle, suggesting again that not all rebel fighters was under Calrissian's command.

7. I heard that (maybe only a rumor?) Ackbar specifically called for an A- wing. Since there were X- wings in the battle, this can mean either that A- wings are more effective against an (likely unshielded) SSD than X- wings and the A- wings of the fighter screen were destroyed (or rendered ineffective by ammunition depletion) by that time, or the A- wings in Lando's group carried more 'exotic' weaponry than any other fighter.

8. The losses (what I saw):

imperials:

confirmed:

1 DS

1 Executor

1 ISD

likely:

2 ISDs (one lost its right globe, the other is the 'multinodule ship'

survivors:

unknown

rebels:

confirmed:

1 winged standard mon cal cruiser (Liberty) (DS)

1 wingless standard, or Home One like cruiser (DS)

likely:

1 Nebulon- B (side by side with an ISD)

surviors:

at least two corellian corvettes

at least two Nebulon- Bs

numerous transports and/or mon cal cruisers

 

Well, that's it for today.

[Jahled]

We could chat about this forever. The bottom line is that a fleet of mile long 'floating cities,' (to quote the SW books), one mega city, plus one almost complete Death Star; all financed by Nazi-style forced labour, war-level taxes (the Empire was the ruling government at the time, support or no-support), with superior fighters (another book quote), defeated by a rebel fleet without access to official financing... highly dubious; in fact completely impossible given that the most able crew men would have been on the Imperial ships. Factor this on the scale of Star Destroyers with crews of 38,000 each and the absurd simply brakes down into the idiotic. A tactical half wit would not get anywhere near the helm of a vessel described as a 'floating city,' that has the fire power to reduce an entire planet to rubble, and to quote a breakfast cerial packet from the seventies; consumes more energy making a jump into hyperspace than entire planetary continants use in decades. On paper, the Imperials had superiour capital ships, fighters, and ground troops (an entire legion of the Emperor's finest taken out by a rebel team who fitted into a shuttle? Oops, and some stone age natives the Imperials completely overlooked...)

 

Complete crap.

 

So we must turn our attention to what I mentioned previously! In the book it says the forces of the Empire were plunged into confusion upon the death of the Emperor! It also says the rebels did things like pack ships with exposives, target Imperial ships, and abandon ships 'to fates at best unknown,' or something along those lines.

 

The finest ships the rebels had were the Mon Calamari Cruisers, which as we know were converted civilian ships. You simply cannot convert a luxury cruise ship into an elite combat ship capable of comming anywhere near something in the region of a mile-long Star Destroyer! It would be simply obliterated! And there's no mention in the SW saga of Mon Calamari tech superiority. The rebel fleet presant at Endor, in comparison to the Imperial fleet, would have been an extremely pale shadow as far as combat capability. The rebels had neither the economics to come anywhere close to matching the Empire, the experiance in command, or the firepower to match the Imperial fleet. It's simply absurd to suggest otherwise. To suggest rebel fighters were better than their Imperial counterparts, or their pilots in some way better trained, is also complete and utter gibberish. Why would you run an Empire with b-rate fighters, when the insurgants(without lawful, official, or above board funding) have something better. The pilots would be better trained as a matter of course, in anycase; having universal access to superiour training facilities through budget!

 

So George Lucas's text of the 'Forces of the Empire being plunged into confusion,' must be taken 100% into consideration! That and the fact we're all adults who keep forgetting the opening lines of Star Wars should really sum it all up for the magical fairy tale the saga really is; that it's not meant to be real...to be terribly scientific; but you can't actually have fighter dog-fights in space, at the very least!

 

It's a fairy tale; good triamphs over evil, and realism never needed to come that much into the Endor equation.

 

BTW: What happens when you blow up 'a small moon,' over Endor? There was I just watching Independance Day... I'm not entirely sure Wedge would be trying to give it the 'two-step,' not to mention Luke having the time to look into the flames of Vader.

[Guest Scathane]

You're right, of course. Nevertheless, I feel this has become one of the best threads evoking good thinking from our fellow members. To summarize, then:

 

• How realistic were the last 15 minutes of The Return of the Jedi? Not at all, of course. Although roughly 20% of both Canada and the U.K. scribbled down the force in answer to what their religion was in a census, we can just as easily ask ourselves How realistic is force-wielding orphaned farm-boy raised on a planet revolving around twin suns becoming the saviour of a galaxy far, far away? We know that GL has told us a story that sometimes seems to grow beyond him as games, novels and other stuff are added to it. This is something we sometimes quite rightly question and criticize but on the other hand, it would be only fair to admit the same would probably happen to us if we were in his shoes. Moreover, we know he often had o work with serious limitations when it came to what he wanted to put on the big white.
 
• Do we enjoy the Star Wars saga, including the Battle of Endor? Of course we do! We're die-hard fans... sometimes with a vengeance. Because we sometimes personally or even collectively feel that the story would have been even greater if GL had taken this or that into account and that's a good thing. It means we've taken the story into our hearts and that we've made it our own.

Apart from the precise number of vessels on either side during the Battle of Endor, did I forget anything?

[igorimp]

Good. Then it gives me no greater pleasure then to announce this case finished.

 

The defendant (George Lucas) is aquitted of all charges.

 

In addition, the Rebel Alliance is to pay 15'000'000 galactic credits in war reparation to the Galactic Empire for falseful and misleading propaganda portrying Endor as a flawless victory. If no leader to the later can be found, the money will be donated to charity, mainly orphans of war organization.

 

Case dismissed.

 

-------------------

 

PS. Regarding to Piett's orders from the Emperor, a Monty Python joke from "The Holy Grail" comes to mind:

 

Castle ruler (leaving the room, adressing the two guards at doorway): You're to keep him here and not let anyone in until I come back.

 

First guard (looking confident): Right, we're not to let him in and keep anyone here.

 

Ruler (stopping): No, you're to keep him here and not let anyone in until I come back.

 

Guard: Right. We will keep him here and not let anyone in.

 

Ruler (waiting, then finishing): Until I come back?

 

Guard (shocked): What?!

 

Ruler: Look, this is really simple, right? You're to keep him inside and not to let anyone come in... until I come back.

 

Guard: Right. We'll keep him here until you arrive at which time we will let anyone in.

 

And so on and on...

[Guest Scathane]

Wait a minute... You mean I should lock this forum until you come back and then not let anyone in?