How realistic are the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi

[R2-Opus2]

While still on the subject of fighters here, I wonder if besides the fighters we see going into hyperspace with the Falcon, if there might have been any others following them in we didn't see, or joined them a short time after they jumped.

 

Just another thing to throw out there to mull over, since it appears all the fighter types we see the rebels employ all have hyperdrives, and were not dependent on another ship to bring them to battle.

 

If not then perhaps besides the 7 or 8 fighters going with the Falcon (as far as I know it didn't even add up to a squadron just from what we see on screen), they went ahead and had Home One take on another squadron to take its place onboard (figuring that as soon as they entered the battle, they wanted to have at least some fighters already deployed to cover other deployments of starfighters into the field from those ships, not only just to have some ready if the shield was down upon arrival like they had hoped).

 

It might have been one other method to maximize fighters at the battle, by having some already deployed before their initial jump to hyperspace, while at the same time maxing out their hanger bays with any remainders they could scrounge last minute.

[igorimp]

Here's some math in your eyes.

 

Let say the Rebels had 24 ships all with 2 squadrons of 24 fighters (it had less, without a doubt), which would total 576 fighters.

 

The Empire had 24 ISDs (6 squadrons), 1 SSD (12 s.) and 1 DS (~7000 TIEs on DS1, probbably more here). That adds up to 8872 fighters (remember, these are all just aproximate figures).

 

Let us say that battle begun with both sides have all fighters deployed and firing.

 

576 Rebels fire between two and four laser cannons (let's say they all fire 4). That would be 2304 shots (if only 50 % of them hit, that's 1152).

 

8872 Imperials fire just two lasers (I'm going heavily in Rebel favor here, since almost half fighters were four-blast interceptors) and do 17744 shots (again favoring the rebels, let's say their pilots can hit s*** and only do 10 % of that, which is still 1774).

 

In this heavily favored pro-Rebel version, Rebs did 1152 damage, while the Imps did 1774.

 

[There's more... ]

 

An avarage TIE can take two shots, while an X-wing, with shields and all somewhere about 12 (don't know the actual number from LucasArts simulations).

 

Acording to this, the moment after all starfighters shot their lasers, the casualties would be like this:

 

Imperials - 576 TIEs,

Rebels - 147 Wings and 1 heavily damaged

 

--------------------------

 

After every Imperial fighter has fired for his third time, Rebels would have lost all fighters, while the Imperials lost only 2242 fighters with some 6000+ still remaining.

 

This calculation has been reached by streching Rebel fighter capacity to the limit, giving them a 1/2 hit-to-miss ration (while the Imps had 1/10) and giving their shields the benefit of being breachable after the 12th shot (which is not the case in A New Hope). Even if we would DOUBLE the Rebel forces, the Imps would still lose less then half the starfighter force. In the movie, halfway into battle, you hardly even see a glint of Imp fighters... where just 10 minutes ago, there were thousands beaming down upon them...

 

I think I stated my point.

 

Hard to imagine I dropped out of collage because of math, ha?

 

----------------------

[Guest Scathane]

Well, you are forgetting that the battle of Endor incorporated TIE Interceptors, which have no less than 10 mounted lasers:

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/diagram/tie/tieint-lc.jpg

 

Interceptors are also faster than B-, X- and Y-wings, with only the A-wing to beat them:

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/books/art/ilmmglt1.jpg

 

I'm not sure, though, what this will change in your math example...

[igorimp]

Actually, I didn't forget the advantage of the Interceptors. I was mearly going very into Rebel favor so that I won't receive counter-arguments like "the Rebels have better pilots" and thingys like that, so I've incorporated heavy pro-rebel favor.

 

In fact, if I would calculate more accuretly, I would have to add that X-wings have 4, B-wings 3 and A-wings & Y-wings only 2 lasers. I've taken numbers four and two to simplify things as the majority of fighters in battle WERE X-wings and TIE fighters.

 

If we would calculate by everything we knew of Star Wars, we would reach a conclussion that the Rebels would be wiped out before even firing at the enemy... which is what I was trying to prove from the moment I started the topic.

 

The battle of Endor is just plain unrealistic...

 

To quote a Monty Python joke:

"...one cannot of course prove this... but it is in the same sense that Mount Everest is... and Greedo isn't... Good night."

[R2-Opus2]

This was why I examined those pictures, I can't be for certain exactly how many cap ships, let alone starfighters the Rebels could bring to bear.

 

There's other unknowns too I'm sure in those equations as I mentioned such as what total #s were influenced by any fighters that might have been down for maintenance or otherwise unable to be deployed. But it is true by the visual evidence in my opinion that the Empire looked to have more fighters deployed at the beginning of the engagement.

 

There is also the matter of equipment. In the X-Wing and TIE games, some of the Empire's notable fighter types, including the standard TIE could be outfitted with concussion missile launchers...now whether any of them had these at that battle, I don't know. Same goes for the A-Wings, they're known to have those (up to 16 if I remember correctly - 8 per launcher). Also from what I remember from those games, sometimes if you planned it right, you could actually get in some collateral damage to an enemy fighter or two (plus the one your aiming for) at a distance with those missiles, most especially if the enemy ships are arranged in flights that are closely packed (as we do see in the movie at the outset of battle). Think of the confusion sowed when those formations get disrupted like that. Plus the Bs and Ys have ion cannons...while techinically not the best suited for dogfights, I wouldn't be surprised that any ended up in furballs where they could use them.

 

A disabled TIE is one less TIE on yer tail after all. They didn't necessarily have to go for the kill as I'm sure the Imps were.

 

Obviously its questionable to me that each fighter was in fact outfitted with what it was designed to employ (right now I'd reckon that at least the X's and B's were definitely as evidenced in seeing a flight of Bs with an SD exploding in the background + the evidence of Wedge's fighter firing torps at the generator) let alone if all fighter complements in the arena on both sides were flight ready.

 

I think before we could nail down any concrete numbers, we'd have to know first of all what "class" those obsure Mon Cal ships were. Like I mentioned for the Rebs, the only real certainties in my mind as to known amount of fighters at this point is how many Home One carries (10) and 5 of the 6 Neb Bs (2 each for another total of 10 - one frigate was modified to be medical so they didn't have any) going by that one photo alone (it wouldn't surprise me if there were additional ships not pictured).

 

So I'd say its probably 20 known on those ships + the group of craft flying with the Falcon (being generous here, this assumes Home One maxed its hanger space after the Falcon deployed & before leaving for Endor).

 

With the Imps its different, I don't think they had a ship smaller than a Class I Imperial Star Destroyer plus the Executor at Endor so I think it'd be easier to estimate their fighters, although its unclear to me if the Death Star had any active fighter detachements assigned to it or not. For me that's one of their only unknowns (besides how many present were flight ready among their ships).

 

There's one other factor to that math in my opinion too, and that is at the moment of the point blank attack strategy when the Imps began to lose a few ships whether those fighters berthed in them were engaged or went down with the ship, and once that happened, how may TIE pilots if any deserted. I know we see plenty of TIEs zipping around, but I'd reckon its doubtful given the "Emperor's surprise" of using the superlaser, that I bet those Imp ship captains didn't bring everything they had to bear that they could, overconfident that what they had in the field could do the job (I don't know about anyone else, but I don't recall seeing one TIE Bomber for instance attempting attack runs on those Rebel cruisers...perhaps the point blank strategy of the Rebs made doing so dangerous being so close to their own ships *shrug*).

 

For the rebs its not just what their cap ships could hold, but in addition how many fighters hypered in separately like the group with the Falcon. There could concievably be more fighters than the maximums those ships could harbor.

[Paul]

I still believe that the battle was given to the rebel scum only because of the "Good must win" syndrome. The Empire had more resources, better leadership overall, and devoted troops. Obviously this is just my opinion and there are as many opinions as there are Star Wars fans. -Grand Moff Conway

[glandry]

I can live with the unrealistic space battle because I love space battles and all space battles are cool as far as I'm concerned. I would like more space battles. Go space battles.

 

I can't live with a bunch of Ewoks taking out crack imperial troops. That is stupid. Ewoks are and will always be stupid. I don't ever want to see Ewoks again.

[Jahled]

Well I found just the place for you Glandry:

 

society for the extermination of Ewoks

 

Perhaps you've died and gone to Heaven!

[R2-Opus2]

I thought this picture might help some in regards to the Empire's possible total number of fighter squads available to it (well, assigned to them...deployments into the field are a different story).

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/at/headon-at.jpg

 

If that is indeed everything they have plus the Death Star, the ratios are still in the Imp's favor. 15 Destroyers plus the Executor is not too shabby. In fact I agree that its overkill, however again, I very much doubt those assets were used to their full potential because of the Emperor.

 

12 fighers per squad times 6 squads each = 72 per ISD

 

72 fighters per ISD times 15 (pictured) = 1080

 

Then there's the 144 fighters reported to be on Executor = 1224 total for the starfleet there.

 

With the DS II, all I could find on it so far is taken from the Movie Trilogy Sourcebook. While it lists its other weaponry, it does not list its fighter detatchments if any, although apparently its crews for its starship support and other ships appears to have been assigned, both of those groups are well into the several hundred thousand (or maybe it is just what its capacity for those crews *will* be after completion, dunno).

 

Given that this DS is larger than the first, the closest approximation for its number of fighter wings could be extrapolated to be slightly less than the 100 TIE wings listed to have been on the first DS (from the DS technical manual). When completed the DS II probably holds much more but I'm still in the dark about whether the DS II had any fighters assigned to it that did go into battle. The big procession of fighters upon the Emperor's arrival might be with the Death Star, but I haven't heard anything conclusive about that.

 

Had the DS managed to squeeze in its full complement (or at least approaching that of the original DS), that's 7200+ at their disposal. More than enough still even if it is just a small fraction of that number...even still if we assume none of the TIE Bombers or recon fighters were deployed.

 

Each wing typically had at least 1 TIE Bomber squadron (p. 29 Star Wars Sourcebook 2nd ed.)...4 TIE (1 recon), 1 TIE Interceptor squadron, 1 TIE Bomber squadron.

 

So lets try weeding those bombers and recons out as non-combatants to get a better sense of things...

 

Of Executor's total complement, that still leaves 96 at their disposal

 

15 ISDs minus bombers/recons = 720

 

Total: 816 (TIEs & Interceptors only)

 

DS II (assuming complement before completion is close to first DS) = 4800 (TIEs & Ints only)

 

Course, if someone knows the exact percentage of completion of the Death Star II (or there's a spec sheet on it I don't have), you could better extrapolate the fighter complement.

 

With the Rebs totals, more allowances would have to be made to up their numbers a little apart from the known flights I sighted.

 

For example, an assumption from the commentaries on theforce.net that one of the Mon Cal cruisers destroyed had elements resembling that of Home One. If it could resemble it in some respects, maybe it can resemble it in others i.e. overall scale & its fighter capcity can likewise resemble it which would yield another 8-10 squadrons.

 

As for the other Mon Cal cruisers, including the two winged ones (one destroyed was Liberty), even if we surmise that there are no less than 6 squadrons on each (one wing apiece), it still falls short of what the Empire could have brought to bear. Unlike the Empire, if the Rebs employed recons along with their bomber groups, they probably threw those recons out to play.

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/battle3.jpg

 

Looking at that picture again we see the three "anonymous wingless" variants along with what looks like Home One to the right. Liberty and the other winged cruiser is not visible, but we do see the Nebulon-Bs (6 total if those "Is" facing us are two more retreating Nebs). I'll go over my list of "known" groups, then factor in those general assumptions about the others...

 

Known Fighter Compliments:

 

5 Nebs - 2 squads each (6th Neb was medical) = 120

Home One - 10 squadrons (assumes they "reloaded" before leaving for Endor) = 120

 

Total: 240...This is more than enough to take on Executor's entire compliment alone (however given that we see a larger number of TIEs at the outset of battle, one or more of the 15 ISDs and/or the DS II must have deployed a supplementary squadron or three but by how many squadrons is unclear).

 

Generous Assumptions about the Rebs:

 

Using the same picture above plus the unpictured winged cruisers...

 

3 "anonymous" cruisers - (6 squads at 72 fighters each) = 216

2 "winged" cruisers - same minimum calculation = 144

 

4th "annoymous" cruiser (another shot shows 4 somewhere) assumed to have same loadout as Home One = 120

 

Total: 504 for that group, 720 overall

 

+ 8-12 hanging out with the Falcon so perhaps 732.

 

This is all before knowing how many Mon Cal cruisers total there were (not pictured), otherwise you could also apply the minimum 1 wing variable to them. Even so, it falls short of the Imp totals. If any other aspect of the battle tipped the scales to the Rebs, I still believe there must have been more that hypered in separately as the group with the Falcon did.

[igorimp]

Good work, R2. Just one point, through.

 

You moved imperial bombers and recons out of calculations. The same thing should be applied to Rebel side, because you can't claim B-wings and Y-wings can fight TIEs as effectively as X-wings and A-wings. After all, they have low manuverability because their made to take on big ships, not fighters.

 

Let's for a moment say Death Star II had NO fighters at all for sake of argument. In taking Star Destroyer fighter capacities (1 TIE Fighter recon squadron, 2 TIE Fighter battle, 2 TIE Interceptor battle, 1 TIE Bomber), you get a 1:1 scale on battle-capable Fighters and Interceptors.

 

In your numbers that would be 408 T/Fs and 408 T/Is.

 

Your Rebel numbers take on 732 fighters. Let's be generous with the Rebels. 40 % X-wings (being the most common) and all others (A-wings, Y-wings and B-wings) each 20 %.

 

293 X-wings, 146 A-wings, 146 B-wings, 146 Y-wings.

 

If all the bombers in the battle were employed in their normal type (BOMBING the capital ships), that eliminates all TIE bombers, Y-wings and B-wings out of the equation.

 

What's left:

 

408 TIE fighters to take on 293 X-wings (1.39:1)

408 TIE interceptors to take on 146 A-wings (2.8:1)

 

Battle of Yavin in A New Hope shows avarage casualties being 1 X-wing for 2 TIE fighters. I didn't count the Endor ratio, but I'm sure that the number of dead TIEs and wings shown in the movie should be about that ratio (I'll count if I have time).

 

So, the X-wings destroy all 408 TIE fighters and lose 204 Their. That leaves 89 X-wings.

 

At the same time, Interceptors and A-wings are simular machines (and superior to previous craft) and have a 2:1 ratio as well. All 146 A-wings are blown for the lose of 292 TIE Interceptors. There are still 116 Interceptors left which now go for the X-wings.

 

In the final battle, all 116 Interceptors are blown for 58 X-wings lost. I'm favoring the Rebels AGAIN with a 2:1 ratio here (Interceptors to X-wings would more accurately be 1:1.2).

 

That would leave 31 X-wings out of the mighty Rebel fighter force...

 

So, in summary:

 

- I excluded all Death Star Imperial fighters, dropping their numbers by some 98 % to the very MINIMAL number possible.

- I took an undercount of Imperial Star Destroyers (15 instead of the previously discussed 24 - there are pictures confirming this count), therby lowering their total number by 432 total fighters (or 35 % of what was left after the previous point).

- I made X-wings the majority of the Rebel force, therby lowering the number lost on bombers. 60 % Rebel fighters are now starfighters.

- I gave the Rebels realistic 2:1 kill ratio (even when facing X-wings to much newer and advanced Interceptors), despite you might argue the count was higher. I'm going by the movies on this one...

 

And with ALL THOSE CONCESSIONS, the Rebels were left with just enough fighters to fill a hangar on one average Mon Cal cruiser...

 

What you can plainly see is that the Imps easily had more fighters and even if they didn't, Rebels would hardly be left with enough fighters to do anything on the Death Star...

[R2-Opus2]

You moved imperial bombers and recons out of calculations. The same thing should be applied to Rebel side, because you can't claim B-wings and Y-wings can fight TIEs as effectively as X-wings and A-wings. After all, they have low manuverability because their made to take on big ships, not fighters.

 

The reason I did not "take away" the Ys and Bs on the Reb side is because we saw some "in flight". To my knowledge, we did not see one TIE Bomber deployed at Endor (if I'm wrong, someone please provide a screenshot if you have one, and if there is one seen, then you could apply that + to the Imps' deployments). To me it is a non issue how effective they were at dogfighting, although to be fair, some probably had to dogfight because there were no other options at the time.

 

I do agree too that where possible, their "primary targets" were larger ships when they got coverage to make attack runs, though given the magnitude of this particular battle, to destroy a superweapon, reb tactics at the point of the point blank strategy probably became more "balls to the walls" so to speak with some battle conventions as we know them, thrown out the proverbial airlock (one way to explain why sometimes you see flights of Ys or Bs unescorted).

 

As for my numbers, I too was largely just trying to go by known stuff at the party using pics. Like I said, there probably was a few more SDs or even a few more Mon Cals not seen. Its said in a few places for instance that the Rebs employed approximately 12 Mon Cal cruisers, but I find that a bit far fetched...I need evidence heh.

 

The one thing I think you might be overlooking in your analysis is, at what point would those numbers change, the moment the DS II went up and the Executor bit the dust. Desertions, stranded craft, and fleeing forces on that end of things I feel must be taken into account. During battle, some were challenging the cap ships (Wedge chasing Interceptors going after the medical frigate for instance...where's the bloody TBs? heh), some going after fighters, others chasing the DS groups. Where ships are in the arena are just as important too how effective they are when not concentrated as we saw at the outset. The more spread out, the less effective they may become, but that's true of both sides though I never got the sense the Rebels were unfocused or disoriented apart from losing those two cruisers to the laser).

 

The way you have it, that implies again that the Empire could have crushed the Rebels, and I'm not disputing that possibility. Only addressing actual deployments based upon the Emperor's "plan" of using the superlaser. A fraction of those forces in the beginning had to have been either held back closer to their fleet, or still onboard thinking they would not need them. And while its clear bombers should be primary if not secondary targets for the Imps, they didn't widdle them away like that, so maybe the few dozen or so surviors you've got listed would be more of a "mixed bag" (being generous again in terms of any veteran pilots in each craft type).

 

Had they all been deployed, I think you'd be closer to dead on statistically speaking. The longer the shield stayed up too, the more the Rebels might have been minced meat further slanting those calcs even after going point blank.

 

I am also favoring the Rebs, but I'm trying to get a handle on why from a statistics/command/logisitical point of view, rather than applying the mystical Force stuff yet. That stuff comes in more like at the eve of battle.

[Guest Scathane]

Don't you just love this thread! I mean, we've already got 11 pages of posts with lots of pictures, long arguments and loads of technobabble! Brillinat! Keep it going, guys!

[Jahled]

Yeah, but i'm beginning to think I need a calculator to keep up with it Scathe!

[R2-Opus2]

lol I know what you mean, but it is fun

[vakundok]

Personal thoughts:

1.: We can count only 2/3 of the fighter force of the defenders. The pilots of the other 1/3 are sleeping at any given time. (Maybe 3/4 if we consider the Tie pilots to be clones.)

2.: Likely the DS did not launch its fighters. It would require the shield, the only protection, to be lowered, with the rebell fleet quite close to the shield perimeter. (According to the novelisation a few ships even hit the shield.) It would not be a really good idea.

3.: About fighter composition: The Falcon was accompanied by 5 X- wings, 4 B- wings, 5 A- wings and 8 Y- wings. Whether these ratios were typical is unknown. I read somewhere that at the time of the battle of Endor only 25% of the Tie fighters were replaced with Interceptors. Whether this was typical for the trap fleet is unknown.

4.: About the battle: It seems that Bombers were not used. It is not a mistake when you have dozens of star destroyers to provide the hitting power against enemy capital ships. However suddenly Piett ordered the destroyers to stop. This left the imperial fighter forces to fight against the whole rebell fleet without any support. So, not only rebell fighters vs imperial fighters, but rebell fighters and capital ships vs imperial fighters.

 

Using official numbers:

At least 9 Nebulon-Bs were visible and two of them were said to be converted. 14 squads.

I cannot remember the number of cruisers, but 6 plus the Home One seems to be credible. 28 squads.

The novelisation also mentions carriers and a ship appeared to be similar to a Bulk cruiser was visible among the rebell ships before the hyperspace jump.

Approximately 26 ISDs were seen, but Bombers were unseen. Likely 130 squads.

The Executor. Likely 10 squads.

 

So 504 rebell fighters, plus several capital ships against 1120 imperial fighters.

[R2-Opus2]

2.: Likely the DS did not launch its fighters. It would require the shield, the only protection, to be lowered, with the rebell fleet quite close to the shield perimeter. (According to the novelisation a few ships even hit the shield.) It would not be a really good idea.

 

Excellent point. We can't really count on whatever detachements the DS II did have until post-shield loss. It might even be questionable whether they dispatched any at all, and the Starfeet's contingent was largely responsible for protection at that point (plus having to deal with protecting its fleet and fighting reb cruisers & fighters not attacking DS II) because they were already deployed.

 

That stretches their fighter forces significantly, including the fact they have now a 4th major objective, protecting the DS. From a logistics point of view, How many squads do you keep with your fleets? How many do you send after the DS party, How many do you keep engaging fighters in dogfights out near fleet? And How many do you keep trying to knock out cruisers?

 

We know things go bad the moment the shield falls, but I still have a problem with the time before that happens (and before point blank attack). There's still time to deal heavy damage to the Rebels then and only 2 objectives for the Imps...Keep fighters and cruisers busy so the superlaser can do its thing.

 

4.: About the battle: It seems that Bombers were not used. It is not a mistake when you have dozens of star destroyers to provide the hitting power against enemy capital ships. However suddenly Piett ordered the destroyers to stop. This left the imperial fighter forces to fight against the whole rebell fleet without any support. So, not only rebell fighters vs imperial fighters, but rebell fighters and capital ships vs imperial fighters.

 

Agreed, their fighter deployment was sloppy. When Piet ordered his fleet to stop, he should have supplemented what was out there with bombers because his fleet wasn't in range at that point (or planning to get in range for that matter). If he had, that would have divided the Reb's primary targets up more. Bombers become a huge threat when you don't have the heavies to engage the fleet (or aren't in range), or were planning to. I think at the beginning, both Piet AND Ackbar did not expect to bring their cap ships in to duke things out.

 

Using official numbers:

 

At least 9 Nebulon-Bs were visible and two of them were said to be converted. 14 squads

 

That changes from what I had then to 14 squads at 168 fighters.

 

If your getting this info between pics and the novelization, I'd agree. Some think that what is canon is strictly just what's onscreen, but I tend to believe some importance must be lent to the novelization. I haven't read it in a while, so I have to dig that out.

 

I cannot remember the number of cruisers, but 6 plus the Home One seems to be credible. 28 squads

 

I agree although I have more allowances in my figures to account for why the Rebels survived as long as they did so my squads for the Mon Cal ships are closer to 50. Part of this is due to theforce.net's reasoning that one of the "wingless" cruisers had resembled Home One (the second one destroyed by the laser), so I was being generous in that ship's fighter capacity based on that analysis. I also applied a "one wing" minimum to those Mon Cal ships that were not Home One (or its variant deceased "cousin").

 

That's how I came to 216 fighters for 3 of the 4 "wingless" ships (18 squads of 12 per squad), 240 for Home One and the 4th "wingless" cousin (10 squads of 12, 120 apiece), and finally one wing each to the two "Liberty-types" (6 squads each, same as above 3 wingless using 1 wing minimum) 144 fighters.

 

With your additional info on the Neb's plus the notation of a carrier in the battle, that raises my calcs (by at least one wing + 4 more squadrons for the Nebs) to 10 more squads at 120 fighters just looking at those by themselves. Granted this assumes the carrier present can hold a wing, let alone if the rebs came to the show with their bays maxed out and that minimum one wing rule is true of those Calamarian ships not Home One or its cousin.

 

Approximately 26 ISDs were seen, but Bombers were unseen. Likely 130 squads. The Executor. Likely 10 squads.

 

This also raises my calc if this is true, as I only went by the 15 known ISDs pictured.

 

Total fighters would come to 1872 (including bombers and recons) in 156 squads just on the ISDs (again, with the Empire it becomes easier to calc their fighters cause each one carries a wing, Executor 2 wings) instead of the 1080 total with just the 15 pictured.

 

If we subtract the bombers and recons out, that's 624 ships (52 squadrons) not used/held in reserve for some bizarre reason...oh yea the Emperor heh. So for the ISDs alone 104 squadrons are presumed active in some capacity and/or on alert...1248 fighters.

 

Add in the Executor's compliment, minus bombers and recons 96 fighters of 144 are added (8 of 12 squads). ISDs squads together with Executor's comes to 112 squads for a total of 1344 active/alert fighters.

 

So before the DS shield drop and your new info, including my assumptions about the rebs above in my calc...

 

Imps have 1344 fighters (112 squads)

Rebs have 888 (74 squads) + 1 squad's worth presumably with Falcon raises it to 900 fighters in 75 squads.

 

This all presumes those recons and bombers were held back

 

Whether its right or close to it I don't know, but the important thing is that the Empire, as it should, still outnumbers the Rebels hehe

[igorimp]

One tiny question?

 

You all mention "normal" Mon Cal cruisers having 6 squadrons of fighters. Where did you dig that information from?

 

All sources I could find state cruisers have 3 squads (1 X-wing, 1 A-wing, 1 Y-wing) whilst Home One - being much larger has 6.

 

In fact, I was under the impression that all ships can double starfighter load when carrying Imperial fighters. The reasoning behind this being that TIE fighters are much smaller craft (10 m long, some 5 wide), while Rebel craft are bigger (X-wings 15 long, 10 wide).

 

This would fit in nicely as I've read somewhere that the captured Star Destroyers now carry 3 sqaudrons of fighters instead of Imperial 6. Nebulon B Frigates (according to LucasArts) carry two squadron in Imperial and (most likely) two squadron as Rebels, although converted.

 

Furthermore, Dreadnaught in Imperial configuration carries 2 squads, Rebel variant being without fighters but more armed.

 

If you've seen TIE fighter launching methods as seen in TIE fighter, it shows that mobile track system which holds TIEs in some ship storage. This system would allow for huge increase in space (making it possible to hold one TIE on top of another), while Rebel hangers (as seen in all three movies) show normal "parked" vehicles, making their storage more land-and-stay type.

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

As for other things, you mention that it was dangerous for DS II to launch fighters with shields up. I agree, however, as we see in the first scene the Rebel fleet sees the Empire, massive number of fighters were already waiting for the enemy. This leads us to conclude one of two things:

 

1) The entire Imperial starfighter force was already ready for the enemy to arrive. However, for this to be true, the Emperor would need to know the exact TIME the enemy attacked. A small side note, TIE fighter pilots have air for like two hours of flight.

 

2) The Empire constantly switched a portion (some 2-5 % of the total force) every two hours in order to keep up patroling until the enemy arrives. This would be more probable. Upon the arrival of the enemy, the Imperial fleet, however, would have got moving (and woken up) all other pilots to join the massive battle. Every two minutes or so into battle, a new squadron would join in. This, if nothing else, would kill Rebels into exhaustion as they would be forced to kill one ship and then see new six coming their way. Despite this, this would mean that the Rebels did have significant advantage in the early part of the battle.

 

[igorimp thinks hard]

Which side's point did I wish to prove?

[smacks himself on the head]

You stupid, stupid idiot! You're supposed to be an Imperial!

 

[vakundok]

Whether its right or close to it I don't know, but the important thing is that the Empire, as it should, still outnumbers the Rebels hehe

Yes. However if we add the anti fighter firepower of the rebell capital ships, we will get a more frustrating number.

One tiny question?

 

You all mention "normal" Mon Cal cruisers having 6 squadrons of fighters. Where did you dig that information from?

 

All sources I could find state cruisers have 3 squads (1 X-wing, 1 A-wing, 1 Y-wing) whilst Home One - being much larger has 6.

I counted 3 squads for normal cruisers and 10 for the Home One.

As for other things, you mention that it was dangerous for DS II to launch fighters with shields up. I agree, however, as we see in the first scene the Rebel fleet sees the Empire, massive number of fighters were already waiting for the enemy. This leads us to conclude one of two things:

The imperial fleet were hiding over Endor. By the time the destroyers orbited the moon the fighters were ready. That was all we saw.

Ties cannot stay long (for half a day or even more) and remain effective, so this (keeping the fighters of the DS with the fleet) would require constant huge fighter traffic between the hiding fleet and the DS, the only vessel large enough to serve its fighter compliment. It is not good for a trap. That was the other reason why I left out the fighter compliment of the DS completely.

[R2-Opus2]

You all mention "normal" Mon Cal cruisers having 6 squadrons of fighters. Where did you dig that information from?

 

This was part of my "generous assumptions" bit about the Rebels, note that assumptions do not equal facts by any means All the wingless cruiser variants to me anyway, look like Home One (though they don't all seem to have exact scale). The allowances were made because for me, I'm trying to understand what the balance was and why the Rebels just didn't flee (far as I know, they weren't trapped by an interdictor holding them there despite Piet's line that "they only needed to hold them here" while the Emperor unleashed his surprise. That implied that they couldn't leave even if they wanted to. Again, to me anyway).

 

The exact composition of fighters on those other 4 wingless and two Liberty-types is just specualation, but because Liberty is smaller than Home One, and the others are damn near close to Liberty's scale (all the cruisers are smaller than Ackbars), so I went with a 1 wing (6 squad) calculation, as they don't seem small enough to be a relative of the MC40 for example, they all seem bigger than that. I've been using the argument that starfighters did most of the work, so I was examining probable Rebel fighter numbers in comparison the Imps' to better understand this "fighting chance" of theirs.

 

For the record, Home One holds 10 squads, not 6. It is one of the only "knowns" of the Rebel fleet. The others are the Neb-Bs which we know can hold 2 squads apiece (with the exception of the modfied medical ones), this is why I separated out those knowns from my speculations. Likewise if what vakundok says is true about there being 9 Nebs (rather than only the 6 I could find) plus that one carrier (if we take things like the novelizations into account), that ups the "knowns" category slightly for the Rebs.

 

The Rebs had low cap ship numbers and that alone does not explain their survivability, it had to be the starfighter element and what they were doing with those prior to the DS shield falling. This would be true to me no matter what numbers we came up with for the fighter amounts on both sides because in the end, it still comes down to how many on each side were actually deployed out of what we know they've got, and second most important...how they were used as objectives changed on both sides.

 

Even with my assumptions about the Rebels' cruisers capacities, the Empire still grossly outmatches the Rebels.

 

But were deployments of those fighters done as smartly as both sides could? I don't know. As for tactics, there's a bunch of stuff I might do differently if I were in Ackbar's or Piet's shoes, but things didn't got that way, so I'm trying to understand why they did those things from each side's perspective.

 

For example, playing "armchair Piet" for a moment...In my first post on this thread (I think on page 8 ), I discuss how evil I think the Emperor is...that he wouldn't have hesitated (had he not been more busy turning Luke) to have fired at his own Starfleet to destroy the Rebels after the point blank strategy.

 

Because he didn't, and his gunners DID hesitate, it should have fallen to Piet to launch his bombers immediately (this would be after the second cruiser fell to the laser, right when the Rebels changed course and Piet realized what they were doing while they were still well away from each other). Piet had two choices though in this respect...to have his bombers already deployed, or to have dispatched them when the rebels turned his way. But it didn't go that way. The fact we didn't see one bomber illustrates they were not planning to use them (perhaps held in reserve to mop up later?)

 

My point...I don't quite get the reasoning (even if I did bring it up heh) that bombers weren't to be used prior to the point blank attack, that the commanders didn't want to risk slower craft while the DS was planning to fire, (or that bomb yields would be too great post-point blank risking their own ships' safety)...they were already risking other fighters fighting close in on the rebel fleet. Since Piet originally was not going to move his fleet in close, something ought to have been out there with more punch in replacement of the fleet being there.

 

But again I'm straying a bit more into speculation and wishful thinking playing armchair commander. A competent commander would have deployed them is all I'm saying, but I know they had a mind trick handicap at work blocking any creative thought heh

[vakundok]

The allowances were made because for me, I'm trying to understand what the balance was and why the Rebels just didn't flee ...

You want to find a balance which does not exist.

Ackbar actually ordered them to retreat. (After the first shot from the DS.) However Calrissian wanted to give Han more time. So, the rebels did not flee mainly because Calrissian trusted Solo and Ackbar trusted Calrissian.

Not to mention they had no other chance. And if you have no other chance, you will stay and fight despite the chances.

 

How the rebel fleet survived is another question. Piet's order was to stop them from fleeing but otherwise do not really attack the rebel fleet. (So he used only the expendable fighters to harass the enemy and possibly attract the enemy fighters away from his fleet.) Since the rebel fleet did not flee, the imperial fleet did nothing, as ordered. The things went well, until the rebel ships closed to the imperial fleet. The star destroyers opened fire as expected and would likely decimate the rebel fleet.

But something happened. The rebel ships did not stop and die, but instead went inbetween the imperial ships and used them as cover against the DS and each other. That tactic was completely new, so noone really knew how to react and what to do. The imperial ships lost the chance for concentrated fire and many of them had no target left to fire on at all. Ackbar soon realized that his ships were in relative safety inside the imperial formation and begun to attack the closest destroyers with concentrated fire.

I cannot imagine any tactic that would help Piet to save the day, and he had even no time to think about it and create a plan.

[SOCL]

This is probably the most thorough, if not longest forum discussion we have ever had! WOO YAY!

[igorimp]

Indeed!

 

And I feel proud for starting it.

 

My child it is... Hmmm...

[R2-Opus2]

You want to find a balance which does not exist.

Ackbar actually ordered them to retreat. (After the first shot from the DS.) However Calrissian wanted to give Han more time. So, the rebels did not flee mainly because Calrissian trusted Solo and Ackbar trusted Calrissian.

 

Not to mention they had no other chance. And if you have no other chance, you will stay and fight despite the chances.

 

What I meant about balance has more to do with their "fighting chance", and I'm well aware why they stayed. However there's still a good chunk of time pre-post blank attack that I have trouble with in terms of reconciling the high concentration of TIE fighters to the Rebel fighters we see, and why they were used such as they were.

 

For instance as I already pointed out, the Imps' pilots at that point only had two objectives 1) harry the rebel fighters and cruisers 2) keep them at bay while the superlaser fires.

 

The problem I see with point 1 especially, is that I am not convinced those TIEs were aiming to destroy any cruisers, just draw fire because it woud be a waste of energy on their parts to do so when they've got the ultimate weapon that can do this more expediently. There's a big gamble here on its own. They had to rely on the speed with which that laser recharges to fire again...So where were those bombers in the interim? Why did they feel it prudent to withold them?

 

You could use the same argument that its because the superlaser is more efficient, hence no bombers, but again I feel their deployment is greatly tied to the recharge rate of that laser. Either way again...bombers or no bombers, they had the fighters to concentrate fire on a cruiser at a time if they wanted, instead everything appeared to look helter skelter on their parts just so the laser could fire again.

 

The time between superlaser blasts I feel is probably one of the biggest reasons why bombers weren't used in the beginning...but this doesn't explain why they didn't come out to play when things were initially evolving into the point blank plan.

 

Ackbar may have trusted Calrissian yes. But he had to weigh that decision heavily with his assets, albeit a quick decision...Its not that I think he knew he might win, quite the contrary. I think he and everyone else was ready to die and take a chunk of the enemy fleet with them doing so...Only when they realized they would in fact stay not run.

 

In the midst of that aspect is when they felt they had the fighting chance and hope for victory...1) is obviously that they hopefully avoid the superlaser...a temporary fix to solve their immediate distruction. 2) When they actually began to cripple or destroy an ISD or two 3) When the DS shield fell

 

This is most apparently buying time for Han in this area, but they weren't buying much time at all when the shield was up before going head to head. After they went head to head they initially expected to die

 

I guess what I'm coming down to is, there had to be enough assets in the back of Ackbar's mind in that brief split second decision when he chose to stay, "because they'd never get another shot like this." The balance must have been a fine one despite that statement, othewise Ackbar might have ordered that retreat a second time overuling Calrissian's opinion.

 

For instance, I would argue had he had no more Ys or Bs left, he'd have run most definitely. I feel its these bombers that were integral in turning the tide, perhaps also responsible for preventing additional enemy fighters from being deployed by disabling some ISDs. There's no point in risking a suicide mission if you only hope to take out just one or two of the 26 ISDs + Executor

[R2-Opus2]

Going back over things I thought I might have contradicted myself, then realized I was playing armchair Piet at the time

 

As armchair Piet I was saying that it wouldn't have mattered that bombers use pre-point blank would have been dangerous because other TIEs and Interceptors were already risking themselves fighting close in on the fleet so a few more wouldn't have hurt, and in my last post I say the most likely reason why bombers weren't used then is directly linked to the recharge rate of the superlaser.

 

Oh and I do believe Piet had the time to give the order post-point blank so I think there's no excuse from a command perspective, other than that whacky-blocking-creative-thinking Force thing

[vakundok]

Stop! Harassing does not equal to 'attack to destroy'!

 

The emperor wanted to destroy the rebel fleet as slowly and overwhelming as possible, to 'impress' Skywalker. So, Piet's order was to destroy the rebel fleet if it would flee, but otherwise keep it intact! Do not forget (when playing armchair Piet) that if Piet had overriden the orders from the emperor, he would have seriously risked his life (regardless whether he would win the battle)!

 

As an armchair Piet:

Opening:

WDHD (What did he do?): He set the rebel cruisers as primary targets for the Tie fighters (without real chance for the Ties), and held back all other fighting force.

Other options:

1: You could destroy the rebel capital ships with your destroyers and/or with your bombers. Consequence 1: You would win the battle only to be executed. (Remember your former superior, Ozzel.)

2: You could destroy the rebel fighters with your fighters already on their way. But without their fighters (and without the main chance to take out the DS), the rebel cruisers would immediately retreat. Since you caused them not to act according to the emperor's plan, see consequence 1.

 

Phase 1 (The DS is firing and the rebel fleet just sits.):

There is nothing to do, everything goes as planned.

 

Phase 2 (The rebel fleet is approaching yours and opens fire on your ships.):

WDHD: Started to destroy the rebel fleet with his destroyers.

Other options:

1: You could launch your Bombers. However, your ships are already under fire, so launching ships was somewhat risky, and as Ackbar's aid said your fleet were clearly superior in that kind of battle, so it would be only an overkill.

 

Phase 3 (The rebel fleet is moving into your formation.)

WDHD: Nothing.

Other options:

1: You could launch the bombers from the farther destroyers (shielded from rebel fire by your closer ships). Yes, it would help, but not a lot, since the Tie fighters were already decimated to the point that they were largely unable to stop the rebel fighters from anything.

Besides you had no time to create a plan because the rebel ships surrounded the closer destroyers and destroyed them one after another and they already started to bomb your own ship! (So, your armchair is shaking.)

2: You could retreat. But if the emperor and/or Vader survived the battle, you would be executed.