How realistic are the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi

[Sith_Lord]

I rest my case

[igorimp]

First, in regards to speeders being used on Hoth, I've read somewhere that starfighters build for space (X-wings for example) don't perform perfect within atmosphere. That's why there are speeders for ground combat and starfighters for space combat.

 

As for Rebels using hit-and-fade tactics, that's true. In fact, the entire Rebel war against the Empire was fought in this way. However, the topic here is Endor - where the Rebels met the Empire head-on. And if you argue that the Rebels never engaged the Empire's fleet openly, that only goes to prove how farfetched Endor is - because the Rebels fought them for the first time openly and WON against all possible odds (ie. better training, more firepower, greater numbers... etc.).

 

As for starfighter numbers, as far as we managed to calculate, the odds weren't 10:1 for the Empire... they were closer at somewhere along the lines of 70:1.

[Sith_Lord]

Well, I just named something for the odds, I was making point thaT THE REBELS WERE GREATLY OUTNUMBERED

[masterjojobinks]

Do remember that there are times in history, when historic battles where won by armys that where greatly out numbered. It is not inconceivable.

[igorimp]

We've already mentioned historical battles here somewhere. I go on to explain that every such example has something behind it (ie. a great leader, a superb manuever, element of surprise...) and note that the Rebels had none of these things. Take a look a few pages back. It's worth reading, as is my tactical analysis of the battle (you'll find a link some two pages back).

[R2-Opus2]

While its true we saw a TON of the Empire's starfighters during the course of that battle, it may not even mean that they used every single one at their disposal either. So while I may agree with the odds, there's still the matter of whether any remainders either side had with them were spaceborn let alone spaceworthy at that crucial moment, and whether some began that way then joined in later.

 

For example, we have a rough idea of the fighter capacity of starships like Ackbar's ship, but intially when you see them go to hyperspace, you don't see that many fighters (maybe a squadron and a half). We also see quite a few go into the DS' superstructure with the Falcon, albeit with some going back to the surface to draw away pursuit. Which means while they're doing that, there has to be others out there fighting in other arenas.

 

With the limits of film making they had at the time, there's only so much stuff they could composit in, which may have shortchanged what we know could have likely been there based on stats like how may starfighters could each ship carry...if they even came to the battle fully loaded etc. Since they won, I'd have to conclude the rebs scrounged for every bit of available space for starfighters, cause clearly they didn't have that much cap ship support.

 

I wouldn't put it past the rebs either to have extremely modified what was there in order to exceed some of those cap ship's carrying capacity.

 

There may have also been things going on too off screen we could speculate on. For instance, would the rebels have gone to such lengths as to for instance modify a ship just to be a big bomb?

 

I've always wondered what possible use did troop ships like the medium transport present strategically to the space battle (with just their piddley 4 quad laser batteries), or if they were meant to stay with the fleet long enough to protect themselves, before sending troops to the surface of Endor to backup the strike team there.

 

As cheap as those ships were in terms of make-up, concievably they'd be good ship bombs. With some slave circuitry they could be directed to slam into any vessel they managed to knock down shields on. True while that sounds like a terroist type tactic, in a war like this the rebs were fighting, I'd pretty much expect the unexpected when dealing with them.

[Sith_Lord]

I never thought of using Med Transports as a flying bomb,

 

It is, of course, a way to take down capital ships, but I think that, even if they are cheap, the rebels won't use the that way because they couldn't afford it. (at least I think they prefer using their money for weapons and starfighter missles)

[dude21]

Ok so not with a Medium Transport but what about captured galleons?

Full loaded with explosives in the middle of the Imperial fleet

[Sith_Lord]

Well, that could do the trick, hell, it wil do the trick.

 

But the the question is, will they use personnel on the ship that tries to escape in an escape pod (wich might be destroyed by someone after the galleon crashed int a ship, the other ships will defenitly take revenge by blowing the escape pod to pieces) or will they use some computer systemor autopilot?

[Sith_Lord]

Yes finally I made 100 posts

 

By the way would they ripp off the galleon of some usefull parts wich aren't of much importance for this mission (like torpedos or turbo lasers?)

[Trejiuvanat]

Definetely, which is why I don't think they'd use Galleons as bombs, they need everything they can get their hands on...

 

As for Hoth, X-Wing don't perform optimally in atmosphere but fare good enough, i can imagine the reason was that they didn't want to send the fighters they needed to escort the Med Transports out battling the AT-ATs. hoth was lost.. Losing X-Wings to defend a lost base doesn't make much sense. And battling AT-ATs in atmosphere would use to much fuel... They would probably have needed to refuel before they could leave the planet. Instead they used airspeeder so that when their fuel reserve is running empty they just cram the things in a freighter run to the nearest X-wing and blast away...

[dude21]

No they can not change the galeon because the imperials would scan them... but they can use a computer system or something.

[R2-Opus2]

Ok I'm not disputing that the rebels needed to hold onto whatever they could. Their methods were the typical beg, borrow or steal variety. So yes, even those cheap medium transports had value.

 

However we're talking the Battle of Endor here. Everytime the rebels have gotten proof of some new horror the Empire or anyone else possesed, that became priorty number one. What I am trying to suggest is would they have put aside their normal means of doing things...that is adopting less conventional means to deal with the situation? I would argue that yes it is highly likely.

 

It is, of course, a way to take down capital ships, but I think that, even if they are cheap, the rebels won't use the that way because they couldn't afford it. (at least I think they prefer using their money for weapons and starfighter missles)

 

Lemme get this straight, explosives and armorments for starfighters would be more expensive than a transport or the starfighter by its self? Granted I suppose it would depend on how the transport was outfitted as well as the fighters. Then you've gotta break down what kinds of explosives they could have used and how expensive they were.

 

But I would guess that they could still get the job done with cheap transports and run-of-the-mill, Radio Shack-equivalent bomb making material heh off the shelf stuff, not necessarily black market material, though I'm sure they tapped any avenue open to them for supplies.

 

Low quality/high quantity over high quality/few quantity so to speak.

 

Something as complex as slave circuitry though is arguably prohibitive to do cost-wise, so if they did use the ship bomb tactic off screen, a pilot and those handful of gunners the medium transport could have boasted would have been forfeit.

 

Anyway, its one of the few ideas I had been thinking about, considering the incredible lopsidedness of the participants. If they didn't use such tactics, then it looks like the very split second the Empire lost their two most prized items, the command ship and the DS, they fled.

 

One last thought too...once they knew it was questionable their two top honchos might be toast, (but they surely didn't care to investigate and be subject to electroshock therapy from the Emperor for failing) the internal power struggle probably began then too. Those damn greedy Moffs

[igorimp]

Nice thoughts on transports being used as bombs. Unfortunatly, it can't be true because of a simple reason: you always see them in battle.

 

In the first shots, when the fleet comes out of hyperspace, there are 2-3 transports visible. Some time later we see one blown up by the Death Star. After this shot, the Rebels engage the fleet and there are more transports visible. In the final scene when fighters escape the Death Star I'm very sure I saw at least one. It would be tacticly stupid to have ship-bombs in battle... and not use them. Especially since being outnumbered and outgunned. It would have been a good plan, but it wasn't such.

 

On the other hand, presence of transports in such a battle isn't really sensible (neither are medical frigates engaging Star Destroyers one on one...), however there are a few more possible explanations:

 

1) The transports could have carried troops for invasion of the planet if the strike team failed. This would pose, again, a question of why they weren't employed...

OR (and I'm placing my bet on this one)

2) They were converted to carry something other then cargo in their inside... like fighters. I think it would be a very good idea for the Rebels to crank up fighter bays in more ships for extra support.

[R2-Opus2]

Nice thoughts on transports being used as bombs. Unfortunatly, it can't be true because of a simple reason: you always see them in battle

 

You could be right, I'd have to go back and try counting ships

 

There is another shot I need to examine closely too, and that's the shot of Wedge leaving the DS ahead of the fireball. There's a shot of him blasting out, then a quick shot showing his direction headed back to the fleet. I couldn't tell if their ships were still engaged with the Imperials' at that point but you could see their silouettes I think with Endor as the backdrop.

 

I think they show the shot again of the fleet briefly after the Falcon exits. It goes by fast so I need to try to see what I can make out of those ship silouettes. If those are not Imp ships still battling the Rebs, then the Rebs committed some backup forces we didn't know about late in the game.

 

As for the transports, you raise another point, and that is if they weren't used as bombs as I posited, then the only use they could really serve is to bolster the strike team only if they ever got the shield down. That's a huge gamble in its self, not to mention a waste either way if their tactics didn't call for point blank attack.

 

Another reason to have them there might be that if they did turn the tide, they have ready troops to seize any ships they managed to disable...probably something not possible during the conflict, but only after it since we know they did take a few (referenced in a novel or two...usually describing them as not ready for service heh).

 

As for casualties, I don't know what ships that were there were destroyed or damaged, but in terms of what the superlaser took out, those were much larger ships (one looked like a mon cal cruiser, and another resembled the Dauntless cruiser in the game), at least going from memory.

 

But this is what led me to wonder what other tactics they might have employed, since the loss of those two ships seemed to me anyway, to reduce what they had significantly. I tend to think they had more starfighters there than was visible on screen and that those ships were modified to maximize hanger space.

 

Its all I can come up with why they had such a paltry capital ship group compared to the Empire and still won.

[BoShek]

I just watched ROTJ again yesterday and it was brilliant. For all I care "realism" (or what passes for it in sci-fi/fantasy) can go @#§&Ö itself.

 

Also you get to see Wedge without that helmet at the end ...

[Guest Scathane]

I just watched ROTJ again yesterday and it was brilliant. For all I care "realism" (or what passes for it in sci-fi/fantasy) can go @#§&Ö itself.

 

Also you get to see Wedge without that helmet at the end ...

Fair enough...

[Jahled]

If any of you guys not from the UK can access our television, there's a series called 'Holby City,' on Tuesday nights which has the actors who plays Wedge and Captain Pancake or whatever he's called from the Episode One, both as doctors.

 

Don't thank me, because it's an ER rip-off, and is a bit crap, in my opinion.

 

But it is fun to our Wedge being surgical with something other than TIE fighters...

[igorimp]

...you get to see Wedge without that helmet at the end ...

 

Gee. Wedge fans...

 

They're almost as silly as Luke fans...

 

Just kidding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really.

[BoShek]

 

Gee. Wedge fans...

 

Don´t know what´s the matter with you. Wedge is among the Rebels finest and the only pilot to survive both Death Star Runs. Besides I´m not literally a Wedge *fan*. But didn´t it ever strike you as odd that you always just get to see him in that helmet even in the game? That´s what I call silly.

[igorimp]

No, I really WAS kidding.

 

I have uttermost respect for Wedge, as I do for all pilots (Star Wars or real). I just like to joke around fans of secondary characters in Star Wars because MY idol in Star Wars is an old man carrying a crane.

 

Try to imagine the load of b*** I hear from people about that.

 

Besides, I think the crane's kind of sexy...

[BoShek]

MY idol in Star Wars is an old man carrying a crane.

 

 

Now it´s my time to be embarrassed. Because either my english or my SW knowledge is letting me down.

 

Is that "crane" as in " large long-necked wading bird of marshes and plains" or a tool for lifting heavy objects ? Did I miss I major character in the movies carrying a bird?

 

Now I´m utterly confused.

 

Help !

[R2-Opus2]

Getting back to the topic for a moment, I found theforce.net's site, specifically their technical commentaries on the Mon Cal ships, to be enlightening.

 

However, without knowing the specs of the other "anonymous" designs, or total number of cruisers present, we can't really get an accurate indication of the total number of starfighter squadrons at their disposal.

 

All we really have are the specs of Home One and the Nebulon-Bs (although with the one designated as a "Medical Frigate", I do not know if it was outfitted to be that, thus cutting back on the fighter squadron total we know of to be 2 or not).

 

Also according to this particular photo they have...

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/battle3.jpg

 

Assuming the right most Mon Cal cruiser is Ackbar's, if you look just below and to the right of it, it looks like you can see 4 Neb Bs in profile (two below, two to the right), then what appear to maybe be two more Neb-Bs facing the viewer and presenting a narrower profile (looks like an "I" with the bulbous portion near the top). One of those is just to the lower left of Ackbar's ship, left of the two other side-view Nebs, and the other is between the trio of other Mon Cal ships (it overlaps the bisecting equatorial line of the DS II).

 

So for the moment, by my count that's Ackbar's Home One at 10 squadron capacity, and allowing for the fact the Medical Frigate was "modified" taking away its squadron holding ability, that leaves 5 more Neb-Bs holding 2 each for another total of 10 squadrons.

 

One other thing they posited about one of the other "wingless" designs, one of which was the second cap ship destroyed by the superlaser, might have been akin to Home One's specs, if so that might yield another 10 squadrons, but I think the evidence is still inconclusive. I don't think anyone even knows how many squads the winged "Liberty" type cruisers had, let along the rest of the wingless variants.

 

And about those ship silouettes with Endor as the backdrop, they also have a pic, but I can't make out anything from it other than it appears to be 17-18 "blobs". Can't tell if its all rebels or what.

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/zs/rotj/flee1.jpg

 

It just seemed odd to me now that I've seen these that they had this many cap ships. The superlaser took out one "winged" design (the Liberty, and one "wingless" one. In another shot it appears there was another "winged" cruiser that survived up to the point-blank attack as well as a couple more of the wingless ones. I say odd that they had so many, cause I can't recall seeing that many ships enter hyperspace from Sullust in that shot

 

So I think besides Home one, there were at least 2 or 3 other "wingless" (one arguably with Home One's specs which would indicate Ackbar's ship was NOT unique) variants, and at least 2 "Liberty" types. I still believe the key to the Rebels victory lays with its starfighter squadrons more than the number of cap ships, but I couldn't speculate more on that without knowing the fighter capacities of the other ships.

 

I'm going with 20 "known" squadrons at this point.

[igorimp]

Is that "crane" as in " large long-necked wading bird of marshes and plains" or a tool for lifting heavy objects ?

 

OK, sorry.

My spelling mistake.

 

Let down my Eastern European guard for a moment. MUST NOT let it happen again!

[Likinsman]

i thought they had all the ships, even the transports for a show of numbers because no matter what they must have known there would have been some destroyers there. so the more ships, the more targets that arnt fighters