How realistic are the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi

[Guest Scathane]

On the SSD the shields were out because of a weakness, the two shield generators were taken out, this was shown on the movie i am sure of. And the A Wing crashing into the bridge, it's Murpheys Law, anything that can go wrong will. and it was convinient for lucas but it could happen.

The shields wern't taken out because of a weakness. They got taken out because the entire Rebel fleet concentrated on the Executor.

 

They knew the rebels were on the lambda, they let them down and they were going to ambush them on the ground

Come again?!

 

Another thought, from what ive seen possably the stormtroopers were offensive soldiers and were not suited that well to defensive tactics also they probably didnt think anything of the ewoks right away and that when the battle started it turned into chaos where the troops were tied up being annoyed by the ewoks to all fight the rebel troops making them easier targets for those with blasters

Palpatine said they were his best troops! These guys should have been able to toast the entire Endor forest without much losses and have time for a BBQ with Ewok Kebab afterwards!

 

according to starwars.com a legion is 820 men

No, according to the Star Wars Databank Stormtrooper entry a batallion is 820 men. Above a battalion in size we first have the regiment and last the battlegroup, which is also called legion. So the legion should be somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 men, as I said before.

[igorimp]

sorry bout my last post igorimp, i got a little wordy, i had a bad day and was a little ticked from RL events.

 

No problem. We all have bad days.

 

...maybe they had lukes help and he used the force to make the traps...

 

And the A Wing crashing into the bridge, it's Murpheys Law, anything that can go wrong will. and it was convinient for lucas but it could happen.

 

...also it was not complete so maybe it did have problems with the laser since it was the first time firing, we have stuff come out of factories malfunctioning all the time.

 

...because the fighters had the potensial to be there doesnt mean they were all fighting, the death star was not completed, maybe they were not all launched since the imperials were 100% confident they were going to win, the rebels had shields... they were still outnumbered but we dont know the exact numbers...

 

...also if there is that many troops it doesnt mean they are all close to the battle they could be all over the moon searching for the team of rebels. They could have left a minimal defense at the shield generator...

 

I don't know... You use a lot of MAYBE's in those statements to justify facts which were simply by right Imperial advantages.

 

Again, what I'm saying is that battle of Yavin is perfectly acceptable as the movie clearly describes the whole situation: the Death Star had a weakness and it was exploited. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, Endor has so many loose ends flying around (in space, ground or Death Star metal) that it's a wonder noone got hit by it... Little joke. ............. No?

 

...i agree some of the star destroyers were being attacked but the rebels were around the SSD and all the SD's were meant to keep them from escaping so they couldnt of all been in firing range, if they were the rebels almost could have went around them and escaped into hyperspace, the sd's were meant as a picket.

 

Concerning the fleet sizes we have dedcuted on this forum to be the closest possible (Executor + 24 ISDs against Home One + ~6-7 Mon Cals), even if only 6 ISDs out of the 24 (or just 25 %) where in the system, along with the Executor's 1000-strong weapon power, the Rebels would still be outmatched beyond hope.

 

Also, take in mind this. The explosion of the Executor's bridge caused it to crash into the Death Star. All movie shots of the Executor show it being surrounded by all the other ISDs. If the Executor was close enough to the Death Star to be pulled in by the gravitational force of it so fast (so fast in fact, that the crew couldn't take control from the backup bridge), then the entire battle (including the ISDs supposebly keeping them from escaping) took place right on top of the Death Star with fleet scattering to different parts minimal.

 

In addition, I know the Interdictor cruiser wasn't really invented for any movie, but it proves that it just take ONE ship to keep a fleet from escaping, not 24. I say the Imperial fleet was BACKUP to the Death Star, not just an inmovable wall to stop escape.

[Guest Scathane]

There are more loose parts to the story.

 

How exactly did the ISD fleet stop the Rebels fron escaping? I mean, I didn't see them crawl up behind the Rebel fleet. I may be wrong about this, but the image of the Imperial fleet from the Death Star when Luke Skywalker is with the Emperor and Vader suggests that the fleet ios moving alongside the DS II (from right to left if I'm not mistaken). As far as I know, the Imperial fleet did not incorporate an Interdictor Cruiser.

 

And what are we to make of this mysterious comment in the Star Wars Databank Endor entry

Endor is one of nine moons orbiting a lifeless gas giant in the Moddell sector. A convoluted hyperspace route and the enormous gravity well of its mother planet renders Endor a difficult place to visit, making it an ideal secret construction site for the Empire.

If the gravity well is so enormous, then of course, it isn't a good place to build a station the size of the second Death Star. Why? First of all, the Death Star is an immense station which would make keeping a mass that big in place under the enormous stress of Endor's gravity well gravity well. Second, if it makes Endor a difficult place to visit then this would pose huge logistic problems. I bet a lot of you won't like me bringing economics into the debate but the extra cost would have been astronomous, even for the Empire.

Moreover, the assertion made on the official Star Wars site poses us with another problem. The Executor is said to have crashed into the second death Star because of the DS gravity well projectors. If Endor's gravity well was so enormous, then why didn't it crash on Endor?

[Trejiuvanat]

Endor had still a planet?

I thought I had read somewhere that the gas giant had ceased to exist about 1000 years before the battle...

Odd

[Guest Scathane]

Endor had still a planet?

I thought I had read somewhere that the gas giant had ceased to exist about 1000 years before the battle...

Odd

No, no, this comes from the official Star Wars site, so that means directly from GL. So we can trust it to be accurate and consistent...

[SOCL]

also if there is that many troops it doesnt mean they are all close to the battle they could be all over the moon searching for the team of rebels. They could have left a minimal defense at the shield generator.

I fail to understand what you're trying to say here. Do you mean to suggest that after a tiny team of Rebel commandos surprised and killed quite a few scouttroopers, the Imperial ground commander (whomever he or she was) decided to deploy the troops all over the planet. Okay, the last thing you want to do when being ambushed by a guerrilla-like force is run and search for it--the U.S. troops in Vietnam learned that back in the `60s & `70s. I'm sure that the Imperials knew this as well.

 

Colonel Peterson comments that such an important and secret facility would have a very competent and intelligent commander and command staff. He goes to comment that if something did happen at such an important facility, you wouldn't want to send all your troops running to find the enemy and leave the important part fo the defenses (the shield generator and bunker, in this case) without a good security force. Simply put, I doubt the ground commander--no matter how confident he was--would leave the bunker with "minimal defenses" while spreading out the bulk of his troops to find the enemy. Instead, the correct tactic is to bring the forces closer to what they need to defend in "ring formations" and call for reinforcements.

 

Another thought, from what ive seen possably the stormtroopers were offensive soldiers and were not suited that well to defensive tactics

These are stromtroopers. Granted, in ANH they apparently couldn't shoot worth a damn, they are still stormtroopers, the Emperor's shock troopers that drove fear into the hearts of all who opposed them (except those who TGGMW syndrome applies/d to ). And by what I have read, stromtroopers were trained in both defensive and offensive warfare, along with other special warfare. If they had not been trained in defensive warfare, then why would there have been so many defending the first Death Star and the second Death Star's shield generator?

 

according to starwars.com a legion is 820 men so if some are out on endor some need to stay in the complex plus anything else they would need to do, that makes it a lot more realistic than igorimps 10000.

That's interesting, considering a modern day combat-reading battalion in the U.S. Army consists of--on the average--900 to 1000 troops. Now, take into account that this is Star Wars and the power of a galactic-wide Empire. The numbers are probably quite amazing. I can't imagine 820 being a legion, but more of a terribly small battalion, if not a sizable company.

 

Endor had still a planet?

I thought I had read somewhere that the gas giant had ceased to exist about 1000 years before the battle...

Odd

There was an enormous controversy over this over at TFN that came to include parallel universes and wormholes and...welll...it got plain stupid. There's just too much contrdiction in the SW universe....

[Guest Scathane]

according to starwars.com a legion is 820 men so if some are out on endor some need to stay in the complex plus anything else they would need to do, that makes it a lot more realistic than igorimps 10000.

That's interesting, considering a modern day combat-reading battalion in the U.S. Army consists of--on the average--900 to 1000 troops. Now, take into account that this is Star Wars and the power of a galactic-wide Empire. The numbers are probably quite amazing. I can't imagine 820 being a legion, but more of a terribly small battalion, if not a sizable company.

No, it's not interesting because, with all due respect for ricepr, the website he's referring to states that a stormtrooper battalion is 820 men large, not a legion. You can find a link to the article a few posts up.

 

For the rest of your post, I must say I again agree with Colonel Peterson. Good post, SOCL!

[SOCL]

according to starwars.com a legion is 820 men so if some are out on endor some need to stay in the complex plus anything else they would need to do, that makes it a lot more realistic than igorimps 10000.

That's interesting, considering a modern day combat-reading battalion in the U.S. Army consists of--on the average--900 to 1000 troops. Now, take into account that this is Star Wars and the power of a galactic-wide Empire. The numbers are probably quite amazing. I can't imagine 820 being a legion, but more of a terribly small battalion, if not a sizable company.

No, it's not interesting because, with all due respect for ricepr, the website he's referring to states that a stormtrooper battalion is 820 men large, not a legion. You can find a link to the article a few posts up.

[SOCL]

I just watched Return of the Jedi this morning and wrote a few pages of notes over both the ground battle and the space battle at Endor. I also e-mailed Colonel Peterson early this morning for an anlysis of certain details and he, being a long time Star Wars fan like us, was able to get me a quick and concise reply. Also, you'll note that everything I write is done so in chronological order (in accordance to the movie). So, let's begin.

 

First point is a point in fact. Right after Ackbar says: "Take evasive action. Green Group, stay close to...." you'll notice the movie gives you pretty good shot of the Rebel fleet present and you'll notice a higher number than the five or so that jumped in from hyperspace at the start of the battle. I paused the movie a couple of times and back to the count of 21, not a very bad number, but many of those ships were transports or frigates, which are not the strongest of ships. Even so, this gives us a nice number to work with.

 

During the ground fighting, you'll notice that the AT-STs will literally open fire on Ewoks that are less than a meter away from a stormtrooper. This may simply be Imperial Army close-fire support strategy, but it may also represent an overall attitude of the Imperials giving close-fire support. I bring this up because someone mentioned that the Death Star II would never on the Rebel ships when they were that close to the Star Destroyers. Well, certainly a stormtrooper or two isn't a Star Destroyer, but proportionally it's about the same thing: AT-ST:Death Star II::stormtrooper(s):Star Destroyer(s). I am not saying the Imperials would open fire on the Rebel ships with the Death Star II when they are so close to Star Destroyers, but it raises a few questions to Imperial close-fire support strategy (or at least it did to me).

 

Remember that scene where Lando says, "Now that the fighters are attacking, I wonder what those star destroyers are waiting for."? Well, that view through the Millenium Falcon's cockpit shows us a good view of the star destroyers present. I paused the movie quite a few times and counted far over 24 of these warships. My count was at about 30 (it was hard to determine whether some were warships or stars), which adds to the numerical arguements made previously.

 

After the Death Star II opens fire for the first time on the Rebels, Ackbar says to Lando: "All craft, prepare to retreat." Now, someone earlier mentioned that Ackbar was not a very good tactician and Colone Peterson believes this to be proof. Granted, Ackbar saw that the only way to survival would be to run, but the DSII's superlaser had to have a lock-on a target that is not moving. Simply put, Ackbar could have given an order to the simplest of tactics: "Move about and do not allow the Death Star get a lock-on you!" or some form of that. It isn't the best tactic, but we are simply showing that Ackbar could have given a wide-range of alternatives instead of retreating, and basic idea would be the example I gave.

 

After Lando suggests to Ackbar they engage the star destroyer at point-blank range, Ackbar comments, "At that range we won't last long against those star destroyers!" This shows a clear sign of fear toward the star destroyers, but what could it be? An idea is that the Imperials infact have the advantage...and Ackbar knows it. It could be a numerical advantage or a tactical advantage, or simply a combination of both.

 

Lando, after the above, later comments, "We'll last longer than we will against that death star! And might just take a few of them with us!" Now, I seriously doubt Lando meant they were going to capture and take off with a few star destoryers, but instead the tactics had changed to basic suicide run. Colone Peterson called the tactic the "Shoot until death" tactic where you simply kill as many of the enemy as possible until you are completely annihilated. Now, the fact that Ackbar and Lando both approved of this shows the desperation, fear, and lack of true tactics behind the attack. Simply put, the Rebel attack went from some-what well-planned to a complete ruckus were they had become frantic, if not fanatical.

 

During the ground battle, you'll notice a whole lot of Ewoks destroying and killing scouttroopers. Now, why would scouttroopers be riding around at such high speeds in a forest combat zone (which, militarily, is considered a close-quarter combat zone)? It doesn't make any sense! There were no Rebels or Ewoks that would make sense chasing aboard a speeder bike (or whatever it's called--I don't recall at the moment, but that's besides the point). If you were to try and give chase to a running Ewok aboard one, you would pass the Ewok before you could even get a good shot off. It would have made more sense to dismount and attack on foot (even though--apparently--the Ewok's arrows and rocks are powerful enough to kill stormtroopers ).

 

During the famous ISD vs. Nebulon-B fight in the space battle, you'll notice that both sides sustain explosive damage, but it was shown to simply be explosion on the shields by the laser fire. But then you'll notice that there is an explosion on the Nebulon-B frigate that doesn't simply go away, instead it seems to explode and almost spread and stay. This further shows that with the number of star destroyers vs Rebel ships, the Imperials clearly had the advantage.

 

Here's one that has been spoken about a few times. How the hell do Han, Leia, and the rest of those Rebels on the forest moon survive that almost nuclear-scale explosion that destroyed the shield generator while only five meters away?!

 

Ackbar is later heard to shout the order: "The shield is down! Commence the attack on the Death Star's main reactor!" This leaves the rear open to their destruction at the hands of the star destroyers! The only tactic present is "Throw everything at the Death Star!" This is followed by Lando famous: "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me!" Now, the fact that this was allowed shows another lack of tactics. No competent commander would simply allow all their fighters to leave the capital ships, for that would leave them underdefended. With all that happened, I'm surprised Home One wasn't destroyed in the fighting....

 

At the same time Ackbar shouts, "We've got to give those fighters more time. Concentrate all fire on that super star destroyer!", the viewer will notice an ISD explode in the background. Okay, there were no capital ships close enough to destroy that star destoryer and the few fighters left couldn't have done that (unless the star destroyer simply didn't have a crew). So how the hell did the Rebels come about to causing a star destroyer to explode and basically disintegrate?! I mean, this isn't X-Wing or X-Wing Alliance!

 

The above quote by Ackbar shows his further lack of tactics as he simply goes from one big target to the next. "In reality, had this been done," says Colonel Peterson, "while Ackbar's ships hammered away at the Executor the rest of the star destroyers and TIEs would have completely decimated the Rebel fleet."

 

More numerical data: At the time of the Executor's destruction (as seen through the bridge viewport of the SSD) we count seven star destroyers and four Rebel ships (about three Mon Calamari cruisers and one Nebulon-B frigate). Seven star destroyers versus four Rebel ships....

 

Colonel Peterson commented that the Executor must have been far too close to the Death Star II...unrealistically close to be pulled in by its gravitational influence. He says that from a tactical point of view, it was too close to put up a good defense, but he admits he is not an expert in physics.

 

I was going to comment on Ackbar's "Move the fleet away from the Death Star" orders, but there is truly no reason to do so, so I move on to the Millenium Falcon flyby from out of the Death Star II. During that shot, we see a count of 14 Rebel ships with an interesting count of zero star destoryers.

 

I could comment further, but those were the important points that needed commenting on and presentation here.

[igorimp]

Very nice analysis, SOCL - as befits the leader of the BEAK Imperium.

 

Now, just a little comment regarding a thing or two:

 

"I paused the movie a couple of times and back to the count of 21, not a very bad number, but many of those ships were transports or frigates"

 

Among the fleet the Rebels sent to attack the most powerful station in the galaxy, you will notice several Medium-class Transports (described by most sources as outdated bulky transport ships with an armament of two-four lasers. Certainly not what you would call a "combat ship" and one will ask what the hell were transports doing there (perhaps transporting an invasion force for the planet if the team failed?). Furthurmore, if you will recall, the name "Nebulon-B frigate" is LucasArts invented. In fact, all movies sources dating from the Empire Strikes Back refer to the ships as "Medical Frigates". As we know by these sources (TESB Movie Sourcebook mainly), the Rebels captured several Imperial-produced Nebulon's and converted them to Medical ships. This furthur aguments my claim of a rag-tag made Rebel fleet. The only actual combat ships identified were the Mon Calamari Cruisers, which would compromise at most some 50 % of the fleet (or some 25 % to be realistic), making their number at 10 HIGHEST. Personally, I would go much lower, but let's keep the highest number in perspective.

 

"I am not saying the Imperials would open fire on the Rebel ships with the Death Star II when they are so close to Star Destroyers, but it raises a few questions to Imperial close-fire support strategy"

 

An intresting side note here about DS firing. The second Death Star blast seen in the movie destroyed a Medium Transport that was seen moving away from the Death Star at very high speed (almost fighter speed). LucasArts says their top speed is 80 MGLT (which is about B-wing speed) and it raises a question of how can the Death Star beam be so precise in firing to take out a ship 50 meters long and traveling at 80 MGLT (1 MGLT = 13 km/h, so it's about 1040 km/h)... and be unable to target a 1200-meter Mon Cal Cruiser traveling at top speed of 10 MGLT (130 km/h) which is a hundred or so meter sideways to another ship that would be in the way. If you think about it, the only way for the Rebels to use the Star Destroyers as cover would be to actually move INSIDE the Imperial fleet and hide BEHIND the ISDs, keeping them between them and the Death Star. Now, that kind of point-blank range would be pure suicide since the enemy would be able to bring all the weapons to bear on the invaders. Try taking a single Corvette in Rebellion and moving it inside a formation of four Nebulon B frigates and see what happens. My bet, the battle's going to last 2 minutes...

 

A comment on Rebel leadership. There was, apparently, a way to evade BOTH the fleet and the Death Star if the fleet simply moved around the Death Star, as the Superlaser is just facing one direction. I'm sure the rotational cycle of the Death Star would make sure that it couldn't swing around as fast as the Rebel fleet could move and the Imperial fleet would be forced to simply fly behind in orbit around the DS. But, I guess it would simply LOOK SILLY in the movie for an attack fleet to act as a moon, rotating around a Death Star and no actual action taking place...

 

"Lando famous: "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me!" Now, the fact that this was allowed shows another lack of tactics"

 

Althrough I'm sick of the thought, I might just jump into Lando's defense here. The order above did not mention Green and Blue group which apparently stayed behind to help the fleet (including those seen later attacking the Executor). In addition, I've read somewhere that Green group took high casualties in the battle and was all but wiped out.

 

"Executor must have been far too close to the Death Star"

 

This is an interesting puzzle we have here. When the battle commences, the Rebel fleet jumps far from the Death Star (because we can see that the 160 km station is rather small from Lando's cockpit). After some approaching, the fleet turns around and sees the Imperial fleet behind them, which was apparently very far away. The proportions seen when the Death Star fires seem much smaller... In fact, when the Rebel fleet moves to attack the Star Destroyers, the fleets seem very close to the Death Star which would actually suggest that the Imperial fleet DID IN FACT MOVE towards the Rebels (despite Piett's orders), although it could suggest that they were moving into better blocking position to stop escape.

 

Furthurmore, I can see some pattern here as the Imperial fleet (in the time of the Executor's destruction) was totally on top of the Death Star. This would show an interesting tactics in the Empire's part where the fleet would have acted as a hammer moving the Rebels towards the anvil (the Death Star). This was apparently an attempt to undermine the Rebel manuvering and bring them closer to DS 2 for easier targeting. Imperials SEEMED to use far better strategy in the battle.

 

The only thing that doesn't add up in the whole thing is that the Rebel fleet was still in front of the Star Destroyers, which would suggest (save for the possibility of Rebel fleet moving BACKWARDS) is that the Rebels did in fact turn and move back toward the Death Star at some point.

 

"count of 14 Rebel ships with an interesting count of zero star destoryers"

 

This seems to consist with Zahn novels, as Cap. Palleaon's thinking suggests that he ordered the withdrawl of the fleet after the Executor was destroyed, which happened earlier in the battle. Still, according to the counting, the Rebels lost about 7 ships, from which only one Mon Cal and one Medium Transport have been confirmed... Not bad for a rag-tag fleet.

[ricepr2001]

Sorry about the battalion-battlegroup mixup i was reading fast.

I havent watched the movie again yet since i was away from home on work for 2 days, i dont have much time so ill finish reading your posts later.

[ricepr2001]

The problem were having is that the movie skips a lot.

In my last post i was gigving possabilities of what could have happened. (thats why there were a lot of maybes)

And im not saying the rebels should have won. Im trying to find out how they did (how could we have an argument with only one side?)

 

The only thing that made the rebels win is some sort of confusion on the imperials part. Whick we cant clarify because we didnt see what happened. Who said what we dont know but something had to happen.

 

On the ground. Did the emperor say the troops were on the moon or in the shield building? just curious. I guess ill see when i watch it again.

 

Almost nuclear explosion! well ill get back with all that after i watch it again.

[igorimp]

OK, guys. I've taken the time to create a tactical analysis of the entire battle. Here's what I've come up with:

 

http://www.geocities.com/the_emperor1981/tactical.htm

[BoShek]

OK, guys. I've taken the time to create a tactical analysis of the entire battle. Here's what I've come up with:

 

http://www.geocities.com/the_emperor1981/tactical.htm

 

Hey, great work. So what´s your conclusion ?

[Guest Scathane]

SOCL and igorimp: I feel humble in your obvious display of tactical wizardry!

[igorimp]

My conclussion from the tactical analysis is as follows:

 

1) Except for the very begining of the battle, to compensate for the weakness of the Rebel fleet, Rebel starfighters had (and were, as we see in the movie) to be employed against Imperial starships. This would, however, simply throw the Imperial advantage to the hands of fighters who would have to have slaughtered both Rebel groups. The fact that those several thousand TIEs played no major role even when there was no one trying to fight them, that's just insane...

 

2) The fleet engagement suggests that both fleets were in close contact for most of the battle, which would be suicide for the Rebel fleet, fighter support or no fighter support.

 

3) The Death Star might have just fired two shoots in the entire battle (the once seen in the movie), but the aim of the second shot suggests very high accuracy on the DS side which would allow it to even pick starships inside Imperial formation.

 

4) At the bottom line, I've almost changed my opinion. It is entirely possible to accept Rebel victory... if we could only come up with an explanation of why the 7000 TIE fighters disappeared in the first 15 minutes of battle...

[Guest Scathane]

4) At the bottom line, I've almost changed my opinion. It is entirely possible to accept Rebel victory... if we could only come up with an explanation of why the 7000 TIE fighters disappeared in the first 15 minutes of battle...

Maybe they got sucked into a parallel dimension?

[Trejiuvanat]

Somewhere in an alternate dimension:

 

Lando: If only that 7000 Ties wouldget stuck in another dimension...

Wedge: Well, you won't believe it.

Lando: What?

Wedge: 7000 TIES have appeared, apparently they come from an alternate dimension.

Lando: Our luck stinks...

[Paul]

In my opinion the whole last part of Jedi is bogus. I can never accept that a whole legion of the best Imperial stormtroopers could be defeated by a few rebels and a bunch of furry midget halfwits. It goes to the rebels must win syndrome. The same thing accounts for the unrealistic rebel victory in the battle between the fleets. Just the opinion of a loyal believer of the new order. - Grand Moff Conway

[ricepr2001]

After watching RotJ...

 

like I said before, it all had to be a flaw in the imperial tactical side of things

 

on the forest moon, there was not a full legion shown on the film, i didnt count but it looks to me like 50-100. so in that case

A. the imperial officers had the troops stationed elsewhere than where the fighting was

B. the emperor was bluffing trying to make luke angry at the loss of his friends.

 

of earlier when i said the imperials knew the rebels where on the lambda

when they are clearing the code, vader says "leave them to me"

than soon after vader is talking to the emperor and vader says "Der be rebels on the moon!!!"(well, it means the same as that) and the emperor says "i know"

 

the fleet, maybe all the fighters were not deployed.

im thinking that the imperial fleet was going easy on the rebels to let the death star pick them off, and when the death star is destroyed they are shocked and flee. however there is no way to confirm this since you dont see the whole battle or after the DS is destroyed

[masterjojobinks]

I just read through this entire post and I must comment. Keep in mind these are just my two cents worth.

 

Let me start by saying the ending could not be any different and I liked it. It is my opinion that the Episode IV, VI are set up with the good guys always win because of episode III and V. Like one of the above posts said you must have a good guys win or you don't sell tickets. No tickets no money. No money no EU or prequels.

 

The ground battle. A couple of things. I have not seen the movie in about 8 months so...

The emperor was overconfident. Luke that told him that in the thrown room.

I believe that Thrawn's theory was also valid. He (Thrawn) did prove it worked, with Joruus C'baoth. Also Rebellion takes that same theory into account. Namely the leadership bonus while the emperor in on Coruscant. But I don't think the Emperor affected the ground commanders like he did the space commanders (Hence his overconfidence). So it is my contention that the Imps did spread out and search for the Rebels but still left a sizeable force at the main garrison. The Emperor was overconfident in the ground commander and he did the worst thing, went looking for trouble. Also the emperor did not expect the rebels to find the back door.

 

Now from memory, Han finds the shield generator (with the Ewoks help) and makes the comment that I have gotten into tougher places than this. They where some distance away at that point. The Ewoks led the rebels to the back door. It had to be far enough away for the deflector shield to be completely out of view. They got into the bunker only to be taken over by one search party. Do I think that the search party (one of many searching the planet) could have been beaten by a bunch of Ewoks, Rebels and Chewie in an AT-ST? Yes, as for the Ewok traps, a little hard to explain... though they may have been for hunting? I think the rest of the troops where too far way to get there in time to be of any help.

 

As for the explosion, the deflector shield was no where in sight. All they had to do was survive the one bunker exploding. The rest was underground heading for the main garrison.

 

Now, as for the time frame of the space battle. Igorimp and Ricepr2001 had mentioned that the DS II recharge rate would have been a good indication of the time frame. There are too many unknowns in the DS II level of completion. Though I have these theories. First after two shots something went way wrong. Backup system that was not installed yet caused too big of a problem. Or second (I have not read any technical schematics on the DS, or any other ship, other than what I have seen in some of the games. So if I am way off let me know) that the propulsion systems on the DS II had not been completed. Since I don't believe that those lasers can be converged into a single beam other than in a straight line the DS II must have been able to rotate to target. The time it took to target a moving ship and reoriented the DS II could account for the only two blasts. Also adds some credibility to why the DS II did not target Home One and had to settle for a normal mon cal cruiser and a medium transport.

 

As for the SSD hitting the DS II. The bridge was destroyed and ship out of control. It is conceivable the ship just flew right into the DS II. I know that the movie portrays it falling into it but for that to happen it would have been a MAJOR tactical blunder on the Imp side.

[masterjojobinks]

So in conclusion I do believe that the Rebels could have won and it is conceivable.

[ricepr2001]

YAY

 

I get help defending the rebels.

 

If I did not mention it before. When they start planning the attack on the shield generator it is night. so the rebels had all night + however long it was from night to the ground battle.

[Guest Scathane]

I get help defending the rebels.

I must say I overlooked the Leave them to me thing by Vader and the Emperors response. That indeed explains why the Tidirium was let through as well as supports the Imperial arrogance argument.

[igorimp]

Like I've mentioned countless times, Endor was a TRAP.

 

The Rebels attacked with a fleet what they thought was an undefended Death Star - only to find an Imperial fleet in wait.

 

A Rebel commando team attacked the seemingly underdefended shield generator - only to be surprised by what Palpatine called "a legion of troops".

 

Now, everything else aside. Say if YOU are in command and are prepearing an ambush for the Rebels on a moon. Would YOU really sent a dozen troopers and a few AT-STs in what was concived to be the FINAL battle against your enemy.

 

Like I've explained much earlier in the forum, each ISD carries 20 AT-ATs and 30 AT-STs (x 24 = a LOT). The forces were there in the system, just for some reason we saw 4 AT-STs instead of the available 600.

 

Now, for the sake of argument, let us asume the troops did indeed go around the moon in search of enemy troops. At some point an alarm was raised and the entire sector was aware of a ground battle at the shield generator... how much time should those troops NEED to return to the shield generator??? 1 minute... 5 minutes... 15 minutes... Because the battle seemed to me to last much longer...

 

With the Emperor's statement to Luke and the very meaning of the importance of the shield would make the installation by default THE MOST HEAVILY GUARDED PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE (with the possible exception of Coruscant). Instead, the Imps placed 80 troopers and two officers... Gee. Ingenious.