How realistic are the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi

[Guest Scathane]

What are the consecutive parts of the Thrawn Trilogy then?

[igorimp]

So, the Rebels spoke up... This post was not intended to 'rob' the Rebels of their victory. It was merely started as a place for discussion about how realistic the battle was.

 

Personally, I have no problem with just a handful of fighters destroying a super-weapon becuase of a percived weakness in the design (Yavin). I have no problem with Han Solo's constantly breaking down 'junk pile' escaping hi-tech Imperial super battleships over and over again... most of the time all at once... Ultimatly, I have no problem with the 'good-guys must win' scenario without which the movie would end .

 

What bugs me is what Endor stands for. Lucas *could* have made the last battle to destroy the Empire something Yavin-like (and realistic too). He didn't - he made Endor so he can show the *ultimate* victory over the Empire, one from which they won't recover. Don't get me wrong, I love to watch the battle scenes, but after so many hours in the TIE fighter simulator and the technology room, I've learned that flying against a Star Destroyer is something only people with VERY THICK SHIELDS do. OK, now try putting 24 ISDs instead of one and add the Executor. The Rebel fleet was tiny in all respects by comparison.

 

Like I said before: don't get me wrong, but the battle of Endor suggests that a *tiny ant* went head-to-head against a *hammer*... AND WON!!!

 

A little side note here. I'm a history buff and as such I can tell you some 80 % of history's most important battles were won by armies outnumbered about 2:1 or more. However, each of these battles have a clear distinction why and in each battle, the commander of the winning side made up a superb and intuitive manuever that changed the tide in his favor... Ackbar did... well, NOT! His *winning* strategy at Endor consisted of going one way (towards the Death Star), then stopping for a while (when fighting the enemy fighters) then going back the other way (towards the ISDs). FANTASTIC! A manuever Napoleon Bonaparte would be ashamed of.

 

So, to sum up the Rebel's *winning* formula:

- their leadership made no notable turn-the-tide style manuevers,

- the fleet had no numerical advantage,

- they didn't have the element of surprise since the Imps were waiting,

- their fleet was technologicly inferior to the Empire's

- and last, but not least we come to the only *possible* explanation for the victory: crew quality. It is perfectly concievable that a bunch of Rebel enthusiasts with unknown level of training managed to defeat academy-trained top-of-the-class-graduates (which they must be to get on a Star Destroyer) trained by the richest organization in the universe...

 

Ha! Take that!

 

Like I said, I like the battle, but the ant-against-the-hammer thing doesn't really sit in my stomach too well. I love Lucas and his work and I would never dream of suggestion REWRITING the movies, but I think Endor as such was a carless attempt to simply *finish off the movie without much thought*...

[Trejiuvanat]

The Thrawn Trilogy:

Heir to the Empire

Dark Force Rising

The Last Command

 

 

As for the Destroyers... WIhtout its Tie Fighter squadrons Impstars are vulnerable to Rebel fighters, B-Wing and X-wing are maneuravble enough to get close enough to destroy the shield spheres.

[Guest Scathane]

Brilliant arguments, igorimp! Personally, I feel that your kind of post is what makes our forums what they are! I've tried following the official http://www.starwars.com forums on similar subjects, but their lack of quality and depth was an offense offense to mine eye (and since I wasn't in the mood to pluck it from me, I came here). By the way, if you're such a history buff, you should read: Greatest Military Mind of All Time

 

As for the Destroyers... WIhtout its Tie Fighter squadrons Impstars are vulnerable to Rebel fighters, B-Wing and X-wing are maneuravble enough to get close enough to destroy the shield spheres.

What I think our friend igorimp is trying to say is that when he's in his cockpit, trying to attack an ISD, your point become distputable to say the least... Edited July 27, 2003 by Scathane

[Trejiuvanat]

I've played many of the X-Wing series games, in TIE Fighter with enough ability one could take out a corvette from wihthin a TIE, or a bomber, even weaken it a bit from an Interceptor.

In XWA flying B-Wings along with the squadmates and even just a couple of Frigates one could take one an Impstar after removing the fighter escort.

Star Destroyer are much like the first DS, wihtout fighters they are vulnerable to enemy starfighter attack, especially B-Wings and X-Wing that are fast enough and have prototorpedoes or even heavier weapons.

That was one of the reasons for the Empire to produce Lancer Frigates...

[Guest Scathane]

I yield...

[igorimp]

Thanks Scathane for your kind words...

 

As for TIE fighter, what I wanted to say is that even through fighters in large numbers have a good chance against a Star Destroyer, take into account that the ISD-II's 100 turoblaser batteries might have something to say on the subject...

 

As for damage to the shield projectors on top of the Destroyer, take into account something that was displayed in the movies. There is only one occurence of proton torpeados in the movies, during A New Hope when Doddona says "...the shaft is ray shielded, so you'll HAVE to use proton torpeadoes..."

 

At other times (especially during Endor) we see fighters attacking big ships, but none of them use torpeados. LucasArts was the one to introduce the concept of anti-starship torps (as well as anti-fighter missiles) and I think I remember reading somewhere that all ships had two types of shielding: the already mentioned ray-shielding (to protect them from lasers) and partcle shielding for firm objects (like asteroids and torpeados).

 

Now, Death Star I didn't have a shield and when Lando fired torpeadoes at the DS 2 reactor in RotJ, he was deep inside the Death Star, so what I'm saying is that I think all starships have a shield that completely protects them from particles.

 

And without their torpeados, starfighters would have to be VERY persistant against a Star Destroyer. You say that a good pilot could take out a Corvette in LucasArts simulators. I agree, but keep in mind that the standard ISD in those same simulators has only about a dozen laser batteries (you can cycle them in your CMD), so consider that the actual number of people trying to shoot you down would be some 5-8 times greater... and they would be LucasArts's AI rotines, but high-class academy trained top dogs... and I doubt they would be needing glasses to bring down a couple of ten meter long targets even if they do move fast.

[Trejiuvanat]

You're right about the LucasArts stuff, a Standard ISD carries 60 turbolasers, 60 ion cannons and 10 tractor beam projectors. THe shipw as intended for siege to appear above a planet and bombard, as well as for taking on other starships, never for starfighters. The 60 turbolasers as distrubuted all over the ship but an Impstar has several external critical spots, shield generators, bridge, engines, hangar and the Ionization reactor. The targeting systems of the Impstar are also exposed.

Impstars rely on the superiority of their starfighter to counter starfigther threat, because the turbolasers weren't designed to counter starfighter, they take to long to recharge, in comparison to anti-starfighter cannons. A single shot could most likely kill one starfighter, but an X-Wing flies at 90 MGLTs and a B-Wing at 85 MGLT, they are still to fast for the manhandled batteries. The same goes for the tractor beams.

[Ragnar]

I agree completely.

These guys think everything in the SW movies has to live upto THEIR expectations of REALISM.

Are you guys fucking insane. You are arguing over the REALISM of a SCIENCE FICTION MOVIE,

 

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE...

 

Science fiction movie? Star Wars? Nononononononono..

 

Just because you see some stars and spaceships don't mean it's science fiction. Strictly speaking Science Fictionon is "Everything that could be". Since there is -in fact- no such thing as "the force", Star Wars cannot ever be classified as true SF. In fact, since it has some form of "magic" in it, one might more readily and aptly mark it as Fantasy.

 

Now, I'll agree that this is not a straight and unmoving line. Our knowledge of what is possible is forever changing.

 

And there are many other classifications..

Like a Space Opera. Space Operas don't really concern themselves with science (or realism in general) at all, they merely use familiar and established SF themes as a background to what is really a dramatic and preferably epic human interest story, yielding something that will appeal to a wider audience than just the odd nerd.

 

Now personally, I *like* Space Operas. I don't take them too serious and watch the show.

 

But, if you're an intelligent person, you can punch holes in the storyline of *any* story ever written. You just spend more time studying the facts than the writer spent on creating them facts and presto: instant dissatisfaction. For some reason, though, Starwars seems to attract more nitpicklers than Gone with the Wind...

[Bill]

It is sad to watch the last 15 minutes of that movie and believe that's it for the Star Wars movies.

[Guest Scathane]

Now personally, I *like* Space Operas. I don't take them too serious and watch the show.

 

But, if you're an intelligent person, you can punch holes in the storyline of *any* story ever written. You just spend more time studying the facts than the writer spent on creating them facts and presto: instant dissatisfaction. For some reason, though, Starwars seems to attract more nitpicklers than Gone with the Wind...

I understand what you're saying. However, it wasn't the fans that started making Star Wars in something bigger than space opera, now was it? All the suggestions and links that intertwine throughout the movies were commissioned by GL himself, as were the EU novels. So, what I'm merely saying is that if you want three movies (you can even argue for it to be only one, actually) to become something much bigger (probably primarily from a commercial point of view) then you had better make sure that you keep a chronological reality check. There were many, many suggestions made by people working on the movie production that later on were conradicted by either something in the movies or in the novels. Furthermore, there were things taken from the novels that were later use in the movies (e.g., the name Coruscant was conceived by Timothy Zahn).

 

So, if Star Wars is just a space opera for you then, of course, that is fine... But don't diss the rest of us who are making valid points of argument to the creator of a universe!

 

 

P.S. 1 - I agree that Star Wars is more a fantasy story than it is sccience fiction.

 

P.S. 2 - I believe most of us who are addressing Star Wars discrepancies actually like doing so and somehow appreciate GL for leaving a lot of things open to discussion; that's much nicer than having him explain it all!

[BoShek]

It is sad to watch the last 15 minutes of that movie and believe that's it for the Star Wars movies.

 

All considerations on "realism" set aside I think if you let the Battle of Endor spoil your fun for all the movies (not to mention novels, games etc.) that´s your problem. I feel sorry for you.

 

At least it doesn´t keep you away from this site.

[Trejiuvanat]

Star Wars is what?

A fantasy tale, science fiction, an epic tale. It's all of them at once, it has the fantastic elements like the Force, the background of science fiction and heros and princesses out of medieval tales.

WE discuss things in Star Wars, as well as people discuss things of the Lord of the Rings, Star Trek. In every stories there are gaps left behind byt he author for the people to fill in with their opinion, their knowledge. To discuss any story is nothing more than an exchange of interpretations.

We had a while a go a discussion about the dark side, it was nothing more than a collection and exchange of interpretetation of the dark side, although all of us know that the Force doesn't exist as such in our everyday's life.

From the very first moment that we are aware that SW is a story we should be ready to set realism aside.

[dinochick]

...... although all of us know that the Force doesn't exist as such in our everyday's life.

What!!!! How can you say that!!??

.....its still fun to believe in it, like when I cant reach the ketchup.............

 

Anyway..... I have alsways ben a fan of ROTJ and I liek the end if you are talking about the original ending, not the tampered ending. And I am sure you will all just blame this on me being a female, but I like the Ewoks! I thought it was a good way to wrap up the OT and it made me happy, Iliek the "good Guy Wins" theory.

 

As far as indiscretions between the OT and the Prequels I have to side with the OT, in my book, whatever it says is the truth and all of the contradictory things in the prequels are just silly little mistakes the GL made on his way to the bank.

Edited July 30, 2003 by dinochick

[Guest Scathane]

A while ago, I saw GL in a television documentary. He said it had been kind of strange to experience that Star Wars wasn't solely his story anymore; he was referring to the SDI project being called Star Wars. Now, don't get this wrong: he wasn't talking about commercial ownership! He was talking about intellectual ownership of a universe that had become so popular, he had to share it with millions of people; that had become such an icon, it or elements from it made their way to reality.

 

So sure, for me Str Wars is a story as well, but don't forget wormie and Elvis who told us that some 10% (if I recall correctly) of their nation's people filled out the Force when asked what their religion was in a census...

[igorimp]

Exactly. Just because we discuss this subject, none of us thinks there is something "wrong" with the movies.

 

In fact, I belive their is no greater compliment for a movie then discussing a subject from it when the movie was made 20 years ago.

 

Now, as Trej noted, we are discussing our own interpretations of the story... We discuss that just in a way any normal person would talk about sports, politics or the weather (we don't actually BE the weathermen to talk about weather, do we?)

[dinochick]

Exactly. Just because we discuss this subject, none of us thinks there is something "wrong" with the movies.

 

In fact, I belive their is no greater compliment for a movie then discussing a subject from it when the movie was made 20 years ago.

 

Now, as Trej noted, we are discussing our own interpretations of the story... We discuss that just in a way any normal person would talk about sports, politics or the weather (we don't actually BE the weathermen to talk about weather, do we?)

I agree that GL should be very honored that his creation has gone beyond the scope that he ever thought possible! Its the ultimate complement!

 

And if I were given a choice over here, I probably would have selected "the Force" also, lol

[Trejiuvanat]

The Force as an ideologic sustent can perfectly exist, as the unifying field that we could manipulate it doesn't or we aren't aware of it...

REaching for the ketchup, for the remote controller and scratching my back...All of it could be solved with the Force...

[ricepr2001]

I just came back to this site after awwile of being inactive and missed the heavy stuff in this thread

 

First

The Casualties mentioned by Igorimp

The Death Star was destroyed by a weakness, not by force

The SSD was lost when an Awing crashed into the bridge, causing it to crash into the death star.

The ISD's, If i remember right they fled when the death star was destroyed, they were probably shocked since their belief was that the death star was indestructable.

The emperor died at the hands of vader

vader died doing so

the rest died from the ships being destroyed, NOT to any direct troop assault by the rebels so they are included in the ship tally.

 

Second

The ISD's WERE NOT PART OF THE ATTACKING IMPERIAL FLEET.

they were ordered to hold fire and were never told (to my knowledge) that they were allowed to fire, the might as well have not been there. a few fought when the DS was destroyed but most ran.

 

Third

Igorimp, where are these technical manuals..

also your math is very elementary, first the day would probably coruscant standard, 16 or 18 i cant remember(more than 10 less than 20)

second if you know about phisics and geometry you can get a little closer.

the home one(the largest ship the rebels had) was 3200 meters long the 1 hr diameter you gave was 166 times bigger and that was a solid sphere which is also incorrect. you have to use volume not diameter you learn that in basic high school geometry using the formula (4/3)pi*r(cubed) the volume of the earth is 1086230340743.04 divided by 24 to get the 1 hr charge is 45259597530.96 and take the formula in reverse ad the diameter of a sphere that could be destroyed after i 1 hr recharge is about 2211 km the home one is 3.2 km lets take it 60 times down so well be in minutes 564 km lets do it again 144 km which is much much much larger than the home one (if it was a solid sphere) the home one is smaller than that so the death star would be able to fire in fractions of seconds and that would not take much power away from the banks so it would not even need to recharge. so the death star possably had cooling issues but can NOT be used as a measure of time.

 

my next argument.

igorimp, again your ant and the hammer thing, i already stated this, the isd's were ordered not to fire and when the DS was destroyed most fled the battle.

 

that last one wasnt much but i did not agree at ALL with his post. and in his next post, what do the shield generators have to do with torpedoes, i agree that there arent ant torps but they can be easily taken out with lasers. if you can not take out an ISD using an x wing, b wing, y wing, or a wing in any of the XWA, XVT, TIE, or X wing games you are a poor excuse for a pilot. i agree with the ai being worse than the real thing but it doesn not take away the weaknesses of the star destroyers, that werent totally in the battle mind you, there are also more rebel pilots who are also better. your shield type speech even if true does not matter with the outcome of the battle

 

 

 

I have to switch my attansion to Ragnar for a second this is the definition of Science Fiction, you tell me where star wars doesnt fit.

 

science fiction

n.

A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

science-fiction (sns-fkshn) adj.

 

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[buy it]

 

 

Science Fiction

 

n : literary fantasy involving the imagined impact of science on society

 

 

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

 

 

 

 

Since i read this it died down but i need to get my say in, besides typing this made me miss tom green. Igorimp, I just believe that you started an argument and started to lose so started to talk bull sh** thechnical crap that didnt apply to make the people think you are smarter than your comments show, swaying them from when you are wrong. i like a good debate but get your facts straight before you ramble off numbers. by the way your not a half bad debater you made me miss tom green that is a feat not to be taken lightly.

[igorimp]

Boy, you sure took this personally, ricepr2001.

 

However, I don't think your arguments were on-the-point in most things.

 

"The Death Star was destroyed by a weakness, not by force"

 

True. It DID help that the outnumbered Rebel commandoes walked into an ambush on a heavily defended planet and managed to take out a shield generator in the process against all possible odds.

 

"The SSD was lost when an Awing crashed into the bridge, causing it to crash into the death star."

 

Again true... It DID help that the Rebel fleet managed to knock out it's shield which is at least five times as stronger as that of an ISD. Not to mention that the A-wing was out-of-control and out of the 8'000 meters length of the most powerful starship in the galaxy... HAD to crash at the exact 2,5 meters of it's bridge, which also happens to be it's most vulunable part.

 

"The ISD's, If i remember right they fled when the death star was destroyed, they were probably shocked since their belief was that the death star was indestructable."

 

Yes, they did fled... Or more correctly, the FEW that survived. At least, that's what Timothy Zahn claims in the Thrawn series.

 

"The emperor died at the hands of vader

vader died doing so"

 

You are probbably refering to the casualty list I've mentioned. That was just a way to represent how the ending result of Endor showed low losses on the Rebel side. My primary argument is the fleet engagement, so let's stick to that for now (although I could say a thing or two about the subject).

 

"the rest died from the ships being destroyed, NOT to any direct troop assault by the rebels so they are included in the ship tally."

 

If I remeber well, I came to the casualty list by calculating ship losses. So, basicly, your saying that it's totally allright for a 30'000-crewed ISD to be destroyed while at the same time the Rebels lose a 500-men Corvette. Now, I don't know what you want to claim by this, but that shows some real DISPROPORTIONS.

 

"The ISD's WERE NOT PART OF THE ATTACKING IMPERIAL FLEET.

they were ordered to hold fire and were never told (to my knowledge) that they were allowed to fire, the might as well have not been there. a few fought when the DS was destroyed but most ran. "

 

The most faulty statement of the year. At the begining of the battle, Admiral Piett mentions having special orders from the Emperor not to attack, so the fleet stays. However, as soon as the Death Star fires, the Rebel fleet moves in to attack the Imps (because they used their fleet to make it impossible for the Death Star to target their ships - pay attention to Lando-Ackbar dialogs after DS fires). So, you are trying to make us belive the Imperials were SO STUPID that they actually sat around not firing while the Rebel fleet was knocking them out all around. (BTW, have you ever been in a fist fight and kept your hands together while someone was taking swings at your face? Because that's what this looks like to me).

 

In fact, when you look at the battle, you'll see a few ISD's shooting back (the once with the not-so-stupid captains). In fact there is one excellent scene (one of my favorites) where a Nebulon Frigate swooshes past an ISD going in the other direction; BOTH exchanging fire (long before the DS was blown up)... At the end, you won't have us belive that the Rebels attacked and destroyed the Executor without actually TOUCHING the 24+ Star Destroyers that were positioned everywhere around it?

 

"Igorimp, where are these technical manuals.."

 

Death Star technical reference, West End Games (1994)

Star Wars Technical Manual, Del Rey Books

Star Wars: Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, Del Rey Books

 

The first one was made for the Role-playing game, so it's not really that accurate. The reason I took the one was because it is the only place I've read about the Death Star's recharge rate. It says ONE HOUR, all I did was say what I read.

 

"your math is very elementary"

 

I never tried getting to details since it wasn't needed, I've used the mesurements simply to sketch the problem. However, you went to detailed calculations which we don't really need to go into. However, I'll give you this as a valid point. Let's say Death Star could fire every 10 seconds... How much of a Rebel fleet would be left after 10 minutes of battle if you count them going into the battle..................???????????????????????????????

 

I think you went on to dispute a minor point of mine only to make the major one seem more plausable.

 

"...they can be easily taken out with lasers..."

 

Ever tried it for real? LucasArts's Imperial-class SD and the one featured in all the manuals seem like two different things, don't they?

 

"if you can not take out an ISD using an x wing, b wing, y wing, or a wing in any of the XWA, XVT, TIE, or X wing games you are a poor excuse for a pilot"

 

Actually, I've played X-wing, TIE, and XvT and I consider myself a rather good pilot. In order to give you some statistics, I've once flown a mission where I destroyed 40 TIE Interceptors in a row and then went on to slaughter an Imperial-class SD flying.... a Y-wing... all alone... without wingmen... without backup... without 78 lives... without a Rebel fleet.

 

Now, I have a good mesure of confidance in my piloting skills, but I think that just points out that LucasArts realism isn't all that much... Perhaps that's why the AI (when attacking you) always attempts to get to you in a straight line.

 

"there are also more rebel pilots who are also better"

 

I think we commented on the sketchy number of Imperial fighters in the battle (something in the line of 7000+). Personally, I don't know what movie your talking about, but when the Rebel fleet enters and exits hyperspace, I couldn't count any more then (let's be generous) 70 fighters. I have all the confidance in Rebel pilots, but A New Hope shows 1 X-wing destroyed for every 2 TIEs. To win at Endor by this calculations, the Rebels would have to kill at least 15 fighters for each of their own in order to have enough ships EVEN TO THINK about attacking that Death Star.

 

"talk bull sh** thechnical crap"

 

I just mentioned a few numbers. You're the one who dragged physics into the forum...

 

"get your facts straight"

 

Take a peak at the last half hour of Return of the Jedi, paying special attention to the 24 ISDs, you might just see what I'm talking about.

 

"your not a half bad debater "

 

Thanx.

[igorimp]

BTW, that's now offically the BIGGEST post I've made in my life...

 

I'm also starting to get a reputation for long posts...

[Guest Scathane]

BTW, that's now offically the BIGGEST post I've made in my life...

 

I'm also starting to get a reputation for long posts...

Brilliant I love this type of debate! Now, to share my thoughts with you:

 

 

Endor space battle:

 

I believe we should consider that Ackbar explicitly ordered to engage those Star Destroyers at point blank range because this would provide the Rebel Fleet with cover from the Death Star (i.e., the DS wouldn't be able to fire without risking their own Star Destroyers to be victim to friendly fire). Now, let's be reasonable: what do you think happens when you engage such a fleet at point blank range? They just sit there and wait until they get fried? I think not... So, I concur with igorimp that the Star Destroyers did attack. In fact, since we all know that, conveniently, Rebels fire red lasers as Imperials fire green, this photo actually proves it:

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/ep/hdestroyer1.jpg

 

 

 

With regard to the size of the fleet, we count at least 23 Star Destroyers surrounding the Executor in this nice image:

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/zs/rotj/pincer0s.jpg

 

Bare in mind that a Star destroyer pack about 6 squadrons of fighters. This alone accounts for 1656 fighters. I bet the Executor packed a few squadrons as well and the DS II account for another 10,000!!! No way the Rebel Fleet could have held their ground for long...

 

 

Endor surface battle:

 

With regard to the troops stationed on Endor, GL simply screws up. Regard these quotes from the Star Wars Technical Commentaries

 

1. The Emperor himself tells young Skywalker that an entire legion of his best troops are on Endor, yet Jerjerrod in the novelization mentions only several batalions when he protests the decision to destroy Endor.
2. Even if we assume that Jerjerrod is correct, there should be at least 800 to 2400 troops on the surface. Amazingly, they were overwhelmed by unarmed Ewoks in a matter of hours. The Ewoks must have had an enormous numerical advantage that was aided by great complacency by the garrison. [Or else most of the Imperial troops were incapable of reaching the battleground for some reason?] However the troops reacted well to the Ewok ambush, with an immediate and aggressive counterattack.
3. In the last scene where the Imperial personnel are fooled by Han Solo into opening the back door, order are given to "send three squads to help with the pursuit," and yet only 12 soldiers ran out, instead of the 24 to 30 expected.

Talking about doing your math and getting your facts straight! The Star Wars Databank Endor entry asserts that built in a clearing on the moon was an Imperial installation protected by an entire legion of Imperial troops. Considering that the Rebels sent only one Lambda-class shuttle to Endor, not more than 20 soldiers could have been aboard, since this is the maximum troop capacity for the ship. Moreover, the Star Wars databank reveals that the shuttle Tyridium was filled with a squad of Rebel commandos (refer to Star Wars Databank Lambda Shuttle entry). Adding Solo, Organa and Chewie to that number and we count no more than 11 to 13 heads (13 to 15 if you include the Astromech and Goldenrod). One might argue (as does point 2 above) that the Ewoks had an enormous numercial advantage but we can also argue that the Imperial forces on Endor were the Emperor's best troops (as point 1 argues). Moreover, the Imperial forces had a huge technological advantage over their opponents: superior weaponry, speeder bikes, AT-ST's and at least one AT-AT. This was countered by a maximum of 11 to 13 guns, slingshots, stones dropped from the sky and traps built by the Ewoks. Speaking of those traps...

 

The Battle of Endor did not include any nights. This means those traps were built at strategic positions within a few hours, anything longer than that would have decimated the Rebel fleet. How on Earth did they manage that?! That's quite a feat even for a lot of Ewoks. Especially when you consider that these traps were built at strategic locations (one might argue that the AT-ST's were lured there but, let's face it, an AT-ST going in pursuit of several Ewoks throwing stones at it is sheer nonsense! An AT-ST could clear a strip of forest the size of a small football field in a matter of seconds!).

 

Lastly, as argued before: one would never build a base with the importance of the one on Endor in a small clearing with thick forest only a few meters away from it. The forest surrounding it provides too much of a risk with regard to ambushes. It has been argued before that the Empire never expected any troops to infiltrate the moon (which would demonstrate exactly that sense for strategy as can be found in, say, a donut) but if this is true, then how in God's name was it possible that the Tydirium, an unscheduled shuttle was let through on an old pass code?!

 

There's only one person not getting his facts straight and that's GL...

 

 

P.S. - By the way, my emphasis in this post is on the surface battle because we can all readily agree that the Rebel Fleet would have lost if the Death Star shield had remained operational.

[igorimp]

Good work, Scathane. On the point and correct as always.

 

By the way, the first picture clearly describes two Mon Cal cruiser at either side of an Imperial Star Destroyer... THAT's point blank range.

 

As in regards to ground battle, here's my input: the battle took place mostly at what was said to be the "back entrance". This would have gone into Rebel favor if their wouldn't be for a fact that the Rebs took the bunker but were captured by the Imps. At this time, the entire base was alert as to the attack and the movie would have us belive the AT-ATs and some 5000+ Stormtroopers just sat at the other side of the bunker and just waited... just like the Star Destroyers in orbit...

[Texas_Fett]

Um, instead of looking for ONE answer to the dilemma, why not consider that it was a combination of factors that led to the 'unusual' and lopsided Imperial defeat at Endor.

 

1) The Heroes ALWAYS win: Let's allow GL his artistic licence and give him this one. But there has to be an accompanying explanation, right?

 

2) The Imperial Fleet was ORDERED not to engage the Rebels, or more accurately, NOT TO LET THEM GET AWAY. They weren't fighting to DESTROY the Rebels, only to delay them so they could be picked apart by the DS2. That reason alone explains why the full force of the Imperial Fleet wasn't used, as well as the use of a fraction of the capacity of TIE's. Also, just because the Executor is surrounded by 23+ ImpStars doesn't mean they're all in range to open fire on the Rebels, who were concentrating their firepower on the SSD. "But the Rebels closed!" you say? Surely they wouldn't have just sat there, right? What could explain THAT?

 

3) The Thrawn Theory: Not only were the Imperials given orders from a commanding officer, they had the will of the Emperor driving them, and in this case, forbidding them from countermanding those orders. They may have gotten off a few shots here and there, but nowhere NEAR what should have been raining down on the Rebels if every turbolaser battery was online on each SD.

 

I had more thoughts on the matter, but I've gotta go. Hope I helped somewhat!

[ricepr2001]

Good point about the traps on the ground, where did all those logs come from, did they chop them down right outside the base or did they carry them in, maybe they had lukes help and he used the force to make the traps, before he left for the DS that is.

 

sorry bout my last post igorimp, i got a little wordy, i had a bad day and was a little ticked from RL events.

 

On the SSD the shields were out because of a weakness, the two shield generators were taken out, this was shown on the movie i am sure of. And the A Wing crashing into the bridge, it's Murpheys Law, anything that can go wrong will. and it was convinient for lucas but it could happen.

 

on the ISD's i will watch the movie and skim the Thrawn books again

 

I dont know how stupid the imps are but the ones that talk in the movies and such seem pretty stupid, non officers that is. Again im to watch the movie.

 

I think of myself as pretty good at fighting, i never take a hit without taking a swing back.

 

Yes it isnt realistic the death star could fire every 10 seconds, that is why my point was that we couldnt use it to show how long the battle was, i mean if it was firing at 1/24th power couldnt it fire 24 times before firing, also it was not complete so maybe it did have problems with the laser since it was the first time firing, we have stuff come out of factories malfunctioning all the time.

 

I couldnt try taking out a SD for real since SW is not real. the closest thing we got to flying in SW is the lucasarts games.

 

because the fighters had the potensial to be there doesnt mean they were all fighting, the death star was not completed, maybe they were not all launched since the imperials were 100% confident they were going to win, the rebels had shields... they were still outnumbered but we dont know the exact numbers.

 

scathane mase a good ppoint about ackbars orders, they were at point blank so if the death star fired it had the potensial of hitting its own ship and if it didnt the blast from the exploding ship would probably damage the Star destroyers ad they were so confident that they were going to win they didnt risk it.

 

i agree some of the star destroyers were being attacked but the rebels were around the SSD and all the SD's were meant to keep them from escaping so they couldnt of all been in firing range, if they were the rebels almost could have went around them and escaped into hyperspace, the sd's were meant as a picket.

 

Again on endor i think lucas did screw up because there wasnt close to a legeon out in battle. also if there is that many troops it doesnt mean they are all close to the battle they could be all over the moon searching for the team of rebels. They could have left a minimal defense at the shield generator.

 

They knew the rebels were on the lambda, they let them down and they were going to ambush them on the ground(at least that is what i remember) ill get back to you on that after i watch it again.

 

Another thought, from what ive seen possably the stormtroopers were offensive soldiers and were not suited that well to defensive tactics also they probably didnt think anything of the ewoks right away and that when the battle started it turned into chaos where the troops were tied up being annoyed by the ewoks to all fight the rebel troops making them easier targets for those with blasters

 

according to starwars.com a legion is 820 men so if some are out on endor some need to stay in the complex plus anything else they would need to do, that makes it a lot more realistic than igorimps 10000.