Lucas and Money and EAW

[Avaris]

I know I haven't posted much, but I read often. I can't but help get the feeling that the fans have been sold out here. I recall a thread about how many copies RTW sold, how many C&C sold etc. C&C sold copies because it appeals to people with short attention spans who could go back annd forth from C&C to quake2. The fact that C&C made so much money if of course why Petroglyph got this job. Granted, this is a business world and everybody wants money. My fear is that every user will be alienated if Lucas isn't careful.

 

There are basically 3 groups of people who will buy this game. Hardcore starwars fan who have been waiting for a good RTS since they were born (The smallest group), Casual SW fans who will buy the game because its starwars(The middle sized group), and lastly, RTS fans indifferent to SW (The largest group). Trying to make a game that balances all these groups is difficult, and in my opinion, shouldn't be done.

 

Hardcore fans will be the least important because of their group's size. Casual fans will buy anything, so not really important either. So the game will be made to please RTS fans. Making a game to please the RTS fans that buy games like C&C (high quantity) means you have to make a very fast paced game that is not strategy focused. (Since that group plays fast RTS and Action games). A game for that group can drift from starwars fact in order to please them (Ie. non-sw ships, inaccurate timeline, ties being built inside SD's etc). And lastly, bad community choices (ie gamespy) because good community isn't important, its a large community that they are looking for. Patches might keep them from cheating, but it doesn't make them fun to chat with or play with.

 

My concern is this: The thing about the action fans is, they don't stick around as much. They buy a game and then move on fairly quickly for the most part. Lucas gets their money all the same. But, for people who truly love starwars, this may be the only opportunity for a good SW RTS for many more years and it will make us stick around. (Rebellion is still being played). But, what happens once the action players who dont' care about SW jump ship? Good action/RTS games are released every 6 months, they will be on to the next. But they will have left behind a game that was made for them and their money. And true fans will be stuck with a game that ignored their desires and expectations. I have heard people say so many times (not just about this game) "We want to make a game that appeals to fans and non-fans alike". And I have never seen it work well. You can't change the fact that starwars fans only make up a fraction of the overall market. Making a game that designwise is for action players, and uses starwars ships isn't a fix. If you want to make a game for people other than starwars fans, then make a game that isn't starwars. Because if this game were to not do well saleswise (ie. Not good enough for the fans and not action enough for the none fans), people might get the impression that making starwars strategy games is a bad idea.

 

People are gonna say I am flamming and such, but I really am not. They are going to say "The game isn't out yet you moron" and maybe they are right. It's just that I've been a starwars fan for a long time and I feel true fans are undervalued. (might i point on the quality of the prequels, the lack of original cut of trilogy on dvd, etc). I feel like starwars has become toy watches at burgerking for little kids who have never seen the original starwars movies. Where the money is, Lucas follows.

[Havok9120]

Trust me...I think most of us would cry if they released the original cut. It was baaaaaaad. lol

 

And, yes, I have seen parts of it.

 

As for the rest of your argument...I'm not even gonna touch that except to say this. LucasArts is very very bad at making RTSs, however, I think it can safely be said that Westwood (i.e. Petro) was/is not. Petro got this game bc they can make a great RTS (C&C series), not bc it sold so many copies. Or rather, C&C sold so many copies because it was great RTS, and the fact that (a C&Cs fanbase is still alive almost a decade after the orginal release and (b the spin offs and sequels (Red Alert series, Tiberium Sun, Renegade, and, yes although Im sry to say it, Generals) have that same thriving fanbase, sell record, and great gameplay, prove the fact that Westwood made great games.

 

I realize that Lucas has turned the SW title into a cash-cow, however...if they wanted to make another mediocre at best game, they wouldve developed it in-house. Yes, LEC wants to make as much money as humanly possible...but I think they may have learned their lesson when it comes to RTS/Grand Stratagy games.

[EJM]

Well, for me this is like the new opportunity for Star Wars on a RTS game, and it looks very good at this point

[Hadoken13]

Trust me...I think most of us would cry if they released the original cut. It was baaaaaaad. lol

 

And, yes, I have seen parts of it.

 

.

WTH?????are you saying you didn't like the original SW movies ????? i have the first ones my copy of ep4 doesn't even have a new hope in the title!!!!!!! BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!1the original Sw is like GOD in movie form!!!!!!!! OMG

(if your saying you like it then that is ok!)

[Avaris]

I guess my point is: I wish I would open up some gamesite preview one day, and read an interview with a designer and hear them say "This is a starwars game and the true fans are going to love it! But we think that it will be fun for everybody." rather than "This game is designed to appeal to everybody! All RTS fans will love it. And hay! Its starwars too, what more could you ask for?". The difference may seem slight, but the mentality it very different.

 

PS: "And, yes, I have seen parts of it. " was that a joke?

[SirNuke]

A couple of things I would like to point out.

People still play starcraft. If the game is good enough people will still come back to it.

 

I can think of maybe 6 or so RTSes that I though were good enough that I wanted to play them a year after I got them. In comparison, I can think of a dozen amazing fps, many of which I still play from time to time. One of the main reasons for this is because the RTS field hasn't changed a whole lot since the C&C Red Alert and Starcraft days. The only two major advances I can think of in the area of combat are heros and squads. From what I can tell, Petroglyph is attempted to add 4X elements to the universe part of the game, and has attempted to greatly simplify ground combat. If the ground combat works correctly, I believe it allow players to concentrate more on overall strategy without having to worry about base distractions [such having as building units while attacking]. To me, that is the type of innovation that the RTS field hasn't seen much of. If EaW is enjoyable enough to non Star Wars fans, I think we could see it being played heavily years down the road.

 

Fanboys won't cover the cost of a computer game. It needs to be fun first. I am looking forward to playing a mod of EaW that has all of the units and game play completely to canon. I suspect, however, had Star Wars actually occured the Rebels would have been decimated long before Return of the Jedi. From knowing someone who still plays starcraft on battle.net [and more importantly, still wins almost all of his games], playing a game where you already know the outcome isn't fun [aka having him roll over my team of 6].

 

C&C sold extremely well because it was the first RTS to feature truly different sides and very intense game play. Every successful RTS game to date has been a rehash of those two successful elements. I think it is very clear that deep strategy is much better left to turn based games.

 

Lastly, this is westwood. All of the C&C series was amazing (even Generals, if you can get past the breakage of the C&C story line [and the traditional EA show stopping bugs in the 1.0 versions]). If anyone can make a really good Star Wars RTS, they can.

[OMEGA]

First of all, I would like to say that I AM NOT flaming in this post, im just sharing my opinion.

 

I do agree with most of the things you have said. The effort that LucasArts puts out on it's games in general is kind of lacking. But thats not the case all the time. Let's take KOTOR for example. Over 60 Game of the Year awards, exellent gameplay, great characters, UNBELIEVABLE story. How many times do you get to become Dark Lord of the Sith in a Star Wars game anyway? Save the galaxy or conquer it; it truely is up to your descisions. That game is by far, the best Star Wars title released to date, and Bioware did an exellent job. Keep in mind that Bioware had never done a Star Wars title before. That was their first pitch, and they hit a home run. Now if someone can do that with the liscense once, I believe someone else could do it again. Petroglyph, anyone? I may fall into the die-hard Star Wars fan category, but I am also an experienced gamer. I know a great game when I see one, and thats exactly what I see when I look at EAW. All we can do is trust in Petroglyph and the Force to bring us a title that will keep us coming back for years to come.

 

Secondly, for what you said about Star Wars in general:

 

I am sick and tired of people whining and complaining about the Prequels!!! My God, what do you people want?! George Lucas started something great in the 70's. It caught on and was an instant classic. He wanted to finish what he started, and that's exactly what he did, nothing more and nothing less. "But Omega, Jar Jar ruined it! Those people can't act! Blah blah blah...." It doesn't matter! Don't you see, that these films ARE Star Wars. A TRUE Star Wars fan would love them and exept them as they are: a part of something magnificent on a much larger scale. Were they as groundbreaking and breathtaking as the Originals? Perhaps not, but these films are still exellent and are fun to watch, just like the Originals were. I CHERISH my Star Wars DVDs. I LOVE THEM. How do you think they could have possibly "ruined" the original cuts? All they did was enhance and add to them! Was it nessecary, maybe not, but THESE ARE STILL THE SAME FILMS WE HOLD NEAR AND DEAR TO OUR HEARTS!!! You're complaining about nothing. You're complaining because now we can watch them with hi quality sound and picture, and a few minor scenes were added. Perhaps I will never understand as I wasn't born in that time, but I have seen the original cuts recently, and I saw the same thing I saw on my DVDs. I saw Star Wars: the greatest movies of all time. PERIOD.

 

That's my little rant. Comments are welcome.

[DarthMaulUK]

Wow. I almost fell asleep reading this one...best put that beer down.

 

If Lucas didnt turn Star Wars into a 'cash-cow' then he wouldnt have money to develope new technology, make new films, games etc. And compared to someone like EA, Lucas is more of a cash-calf!

 

Looking back, Lucasarts haven't hit the mark with a decent Star Wars RTS that sold. Galactic Battlegrounds did do pretty well and was based on a current popular game engine. Times have changed (thankfully) as the RTS genre moves into more of a 'total war' feel to the games.

 

Lucasarts really had to deliver that killer RTS and to be frank, I doubt if the game would get as much coverage if those infamous words 'C&C' wasnt mentioned in press releases early on - because that is a major selling point.

 

C&C hit the mark for various reasons - remember also, the Gulf War had not long finished then, and of course, it was just so addictive! EaW will appeal to a larger market for this very reason. Not only will the hardcore Star Wars fans, who will buy anything Star Wars no matter how bad it is, but also C&C fans itching to try out something new, since the Generals game engine is older than Yoda's underwear!

 

Since Jim Ward was appointed President of Lucasarts, they now plan to release two Star Wars games a year - one at the start of the first quarter and one at the end of the year and they are fully aware of the quality they need to achieve to bring back some credibility to the licence.

 

Galaxies apart, the last few games have been good. I just loved Republic Commando and KOTOR has hit the mark along with Battlefront. Petroglyph are working round the clock and I would really trust my gaming life in their hands.

 

DMUK

[Havok9120]

WTH?????are you saying you didn't like the original SW movies ????? i have the first ones my copy of ep4 doesn't even have a new hope in the title!!!!!!! BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!1the original Sw is like GOD in movie form!!!!!!!! OMG

(if your saying you like it then that is ok!)

 

No no no no no!!! I loved the original movies! I loved all the movies!

 

ANH was cut two times to my knowledge. The second cut was the movie that was released, and the movie we all know and the love. The first cut however was, um...well, I quote Lucas and say it was a disastor.

 

I agree with DM completely btw. The tech that Lucas developed changed movie-making forever, and he couldnt have done that without the money he made from SW.

 

I too trust Petro 100% to give me a great game. LA I would trust on anything but an RTS, but Petro/Westwood I trust on anything.

[plokoon9619]

If I remember delphi said LEC isn't allowing them to put dreads,carracks,the other vsd,mc 80 wingless,ssd,interceptor,and other ships in.

[Teradyn_pff]

If I remember delphi said LEC isn't allowing them to put dreads,carracks,the other vsd,mc 80 wingless,ssd,interceptor,and other ships in.

 

I don't remember Delphi saying that. I understood it to be a limitation of the timeline they were working with but they had to throw in some post ANH ships for the Rebellion for balance. If it was somethign LEC did, then no description of my opinion on that would pass any profanity filter. The only somewhat acceptable (although money-grubbing and just downright nasty) explanation is that they were planning on having an EAW 2 or some such sequel from the very beginning.

[CrushProject]

in response to omega: altho im still excited to see this game, the new SW movies are for children. Episode 3 was trying its hardest to catch up, but all the new star wars movies were a joke none-the-less.

 

Your entitled to your opinion, and i dont mean to infringe on that, but didnt it strike you as odd that in episode one the child anakin destroyed a major droid ship that had the main reactor right next to the hanger bay?

 

Who designed that thing? What happens if theres an accident/sabotage in the hanger bay? The whole ship goes up? Im surprised the droids even made it to the planet to invade it to begin with, with a design like that.

 

Should i go on? Did you notice that not ONE person in Episode One got killed by the entire droid army once it hit the ground?

 

The reason im still amped about this game in specific is because its star wars in (almost) its golden years, petro has decent rts experiance, and star wars has been hurting for good games, so petro has got to be at least pressured to turn out a quality product.

 

EDIT: and KOTOR was a good time, but it was a little easy. Great story tho. Oh, and i dont think a quality rts has come out since WC3, but thats just me.

[Naja]

The only thing that I'm honestly sweating about is the moddability of the game.

 

It's obvious that there are a lot of creative people that want to put their own spin on EaW, but the fact that the game will need additional software to mod? That strikes me as a little draconian.

 

At least, that's how it sounded to me. Like C3PO, I'd love to be wrong.

[Teradyn_pff]

It also goes against everything that Petroglyph has said about the modability of the game. They have indicated that it would be extremely modable right from the start, but now we are finding that that modability has to be deliberately supported with separate software? Doesn't sound mod friendly to me.

[matt_pff]

I understand you all want the best out of this game....Star Wars fans or not we all want fun gameplay, great graphics and oodles of other features that make a game great but don't you think a lot of people are complaining a little too much. Who cares that we would have to wait for a sequel to see the Tie interceptor or wait for an expansion pack to see the B-Wing. At least most of you are able to play/get the game when it comes out. Us Mac users have to sit and wait and wait and wait for a company to port it over. I guess it goes along with the saying "you don't know what you have till its gone" and I feel that that qoute captures the feelings of a lot of people on this board. I've been watching the posts, complaints, praise and endless requests on this board for quite sometime and all I know is that the devs have been working extremely hard to bring PC, Star Wars and RTS fans a truly unbelieveable game. I guess my point is this: understand you guys are getting a great game based on Episode 4 of Star Wars that a lot of people have been waiting for for a long time. Thanks and sorry if I offend anyone.

[Naja]

No, no worries. I'm still looking forward to this game.

 

It's just a little bit of a kick in the teeth to hear a game touted as "very mod friendly" from its own devs, only to hear months before the game's release that modding will depend on seperate software provided from the game's greedy, non-commital parent company (LucasArts).

[Avaris]

I'm sorry, my original post was far to long and put people to sleep. All I am asking is why does it seem like asking for:

 

(a) A game that is accurate to the star wars universe (Planatary shields as they should be, ISD's dont make fighters, squadrons of even numbers (12), etc)

 

(b) Conent/timeline that the fans want (The starwars universe has more content than you could ever fit into a game, but there are clearly units that everybody would like to see)

 

© A good online community setup (There are plenty of companies that have made good severs for their own games at a decent cost. Bungie.net comes to mind since at the time, Myth 1 was the only game they had. And the interface, community was excellent)

 

Why must we as fans lower our expectations from "what is starwars"? Just because they managed to put out some bad RTS's prior? I don't think those three simple requests are unreasonable. People love starwars because it IS a fun universe. Can't a game stay starwars while also fun for a wider audience? I think my main point was lost. My concern is that the tinkering will make the game unappealing to all groups, rather than more appealing to all groups. And in the end, that doesn't suit anybody. We shall see though, I know I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[matt_pff]

Sure they said that it would be easy to mod but they never said that it wouldn't require a program to mod it. Maybe that doesn't make sense but what I'm trying to say is the community will be able to mod the game and I personally think its pretty cool that they are releasing a program for modders. They aren't going back on their word of "this game will be easy to mod", now you just need a program they will release.

In reply to the game not having more units and what not, I remember the dev specifically stating they had numerous models that Lucas Arts decided to pass on. I know you guys like proof and flame people for not having it but I frankly can't remember what topic it was in. Regardless, I'm sure there will be expansion packs that will cover more units but I'm pretty impressed at some of the units they are including such as the Z-95s, Kyle Katarn for example. I thought for sure those wouldn't see the light of day. I still think there are more surprises coming our way.

[Avaris]

Matt, my posts are in regards to LA not Petroglyph. PG is doing what they are asked and im sure they are doing it to the best of their abilites and will impress us. As far as Kyle Kartan, z95s.. I'd trade them in for B-wings and Interceptors, stuff from the movies that are the core of the expansive universe.

[matt_pff]

I'm sorry I gave that impression....I understand completely and apologize if you felt I was attacking you. I truly do understand the point you are making. Sorry for the miscommunication!