[ROR] Topics-A Question of Scale

[Stellar_Magic]

Well I've stopped tossing out ideas for the moment and moved toward some very real issues with the design of the modification Reality of Rebellion.

 

How big should it be?

 

Now, I'm not talking about the number of units or complexity of the technology trees, I'm talking about a very real question. How large should units be on the screen and by extension, how big will the maps need to be?

 

If we're talking about canonical realism the design of gameplay and the maps will have to be altered.

 

Some of you may be asking... What is he talking about? Well here is what I'm talking about.

 

In The Empire Strikes Back there is canonical evidence for the maximum effective range of an AT-AT's weaponary. General Veer's destroys the Power Generator from a distance of just over 17 kilometers suggesting a maximum range of just less then 18 kilometers for the Walker's heavy weapons.

 

If you look at the maps as they have been displayed they appear to portray an area less then four kilomters across.

 

This leaves us with some choices. 1) Increase the size of the maps to arround 20 kilometers by 20 kilometers. 2) Decrease the in game size of the units so that it is proportional. 3) Do a combination of 1-2.

 

What do you guys think?

[Darkmark]

On the surface of things 2 seems the best and easiest option, but you'd be stuck fiddling around with tiny units on the battlefield, which might get frustrating quickly. 1 sounds like a lot more work, but probably much more worth it in the end. I can't see much problem with having larger maps, except that you might have to explore more.

 

A mix could work, but I personally think if you're going to the effort of changing the maps anyway, you might as well go the whole way with just 2.

[Stellar_Magic]

Well, once we start adding structures we'll be forced to edit the maps to accomodate larger bases probably. In which case making big maps will be something that may come naturally. It's possible that it won't be possible to make larger maps, in which case we'll be forced to go with option number two.

[Darkmark]

I'm willing to bet you'd be able to balance it with other units, but being able to shoot 17 km, even on a 20km map feels to me just a little excessive. I know you'd have to have line of sight with a scout or probe droid or something to use the AT-AT fire effectively, but you'd be able to bombard the rebel base from very close to your own spawn point. I'm guessing the radius of the projected rebel base shield is going to be improved though, so that may help prevent them from doing anything serious, but I wouldn't like to see them against an unshielded base .

 

Just my thoughts though. Like I say it can be balanced, I guess. It is realistic, I'll give you that.

[Stellar_Magic]

Well I've been looking at the known ranges of some of the weapon systems used by both the Rebel Alliance / New Republic and Empire. There are some weapons that actually have an even longer range then the AT-AT Walkers.

 

Loronar MAS-2xB Mobile Blaster Artillery

Armament: 2 Turbolaser Turrets, 1 Quad Laser Turret, 1 Turbolaser Pulser

Maximum Range: 20 Kilometers

 

Atgar 1.4 FD P-Tower

Armament: 1 Laser Cannon

Maximum Range: 10 Kilometers

 

Golan Arms DF.9 Anti-Infantry Battery

Armament: 1 Laser Cannon

Maximum Range: 16 Kilometers

 

It can also be inferred that the Maximum Range of most vehicle mounted heavy blasters will be in the range of 10-16 Kilometers this means that armor vehicles are capable of engaging targets at the edge of the horizon.

 

As a result of these ranges strategic use of terrain will become much more important. Deploying units in defelade sp? possitions to protect them from being engaged by enemies at the edge of their range or beyond. Also, while most units will be able to fire at targets at their maximum ranges, hitting them is another matter. If I can get accuracy in game the threat of being engaged at long ranges will be marginalized, after all a tenth of a degree off when shooting at eighteen kilometers translates into hundreds of meters downrange.

[AT-AP]

I would think that the longer you can shoot, the more inaccurate your shots will be and the more energy will be dissapated before reaching the target...

 

The generator in ESB was a fairly big structure, there was no telling what would have happened, had the AT-AT tried to hit a smaller, mobile target at that range.

 

Another factor is the use of projectile cannons, like the ones on the AT-AP and AT-TE. Size ain't necessarily the issue, if you can shoot something beyond your field of vision.

[Naja]

Accuracy would be a huge factor...and one that modern RTS's haven't quite gotten the hang of.

 

That's the main reason why they have to use rock paper scissors formulae so that a bazooka trooper can mysteriously soak up tank shells. Or a TIE Fighter turbolaser fire, for that matter...

[Stellar_Magic]

Which is why putting in accuracy will be of such importance. Still, I think perhaps reducing the in game size will also go a long way toward solving the problem, after all a smaller target is harder to hit.

 

For an initial release I'll probably reduce the size of most every unit by 90% basically making the size of each unit 1/10th of what it was in the original game. That will be a good starting point I think.

 

Another matter is translating game units into actual real world units. I think I'll make each game unit roughly equal to 10 meters.

 

I'm thinking about starting a thread to discuss tactics with canonically realistic units.

[Gen.Vader]

wow, ill have to see an eye doctor after plaaying your mod....all the teensy weensy explosions ansd little stick men

 

yay! go stick men!

 

but i would prefer the 2nd solution, just tone it down and make it proportionally to the dimensions you get in the game..

[Darkmark]

9/10th scale shouldn't make that much of a difference, they'll still be selectable and have a decent amount of gameplay. I think I've finally come around to the idea of making them smaller. If you keep them the same size the maps are going to be too small, even if enlarged to 20km by 20km. I now think that a small reduction might help, and shouldn't be at all detrimental to gameplay... as long as it is a small reduction, anything below 50% scale would seem to me to be starting to get too small.

[AT-AP]

I suddenly remembered other aspects of long-range AT-AT fire:

 

General Veers appeared to only use his targeting scopes when firing on the generator, leaving the closer targets to his gunner.

 

He also ordered "maximum firepower" to penetrate the armor of the generator. I assume "maximum firepower" can't be used indiscriminently, as even energy weapons have limited ammo.

 

Would it be possible to add "targeting" features to a mod, or is that out of reach for a game like this?

[Stellar_Magic]

I'd guess we could at least set it up so that the AT-AT uses "Maximum Firepower" when engaging structures.

 

For more debate on tactics go here...

http://swempireatwar.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1331

[Stellar_Magic]

Well back to talk of scale. I've just finished a chart that shows the approxmate size of a variety of different units... Enjoy.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/StellarMagic01/UnitDisplay.jpg

[Ghostly_Substance]

Nice picture but the flip, AT-HA? MT-AT is cool but weird for the Empire. Cool tho so good luck.

[Stellar_Magic]

Well I actually had to make that thing from just a few illustrations of a mysterious walker on the Star Wars Technical Commentaries. I've come up with the name All Terrain-Heavy Assaliant to stand in for something more definite down the line.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/StellarMagic01/AT-HA.jpg

 

You like the three different versions of the Juggernaught? All of them exist, at least according to theforce.net.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/StellarMagic01/JuggernaughtEvolution.jpg

[AT-AP]

They're all nice, just be careful about the scaling, as some vessels are different in size from what's pictured here, i.e the A6 Juggernaut being about twice as big as the A5.

[Naja]

Yeah, the AT-AT doesn't look nearly as imposing as it should, in comparison with all of the other WEAK FOLK!

[Stellar_Magic]

Weak Folk? Some of the equipment on display could eat an AT-AT for breakfast. May I draw your attention to the Loronar MAS 2xB. One shot from it and the walker wouldn't just be destroyed... It would be vaporized.

[AT-AP]

Yep, the Loronar turbolaser artillery is possibly the biggest ground unit available (although it flies).

 

The HAVw A6 Juggernaut and XR-85 droid tank also trumph it.

 

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/CptK/vehiclesscale.jpg

[DragonShadow]

Re-scaling space units is easy. The starfighters need to be a little less than half their original size to be accurate. I'm still working on units like the Millennium Falcon, Slave I, and Lambda Shuttle. I also plan on resizing the Blockade Runners to fit in a SD's hangar. Once I do that, that'll probably be the base for re-scaling anything else. I might scale up the Imp SD if units simply become too small.

 

Yes, I'm that crazy.

[Megajames]

problem is that you can't zoom up close to the battle with the fighters so small,

[plokoon9619]

problem is that you can't zoom up close to the battle with the fighters so small,

 

You can change zoom distance.

[Megajames]

good, that puts me to rest

[DragonShadow]

Noticed something cool: Corellian Corvettes already fit in the ISD hangar! w00t. Anyway, on the ROR-ATOR mod, I have one small complaint: in fact, it's very small: Nebulon B Frigates aren't that small!

 

They should probably be a little smaller (have to double check) but they are bigger than that.

[Dark_Dragon]

According to the newest SW Databank update the size of these 4 ships are:

 

Assault Frigate 700m

Tartans 600m

Broadside Cruiser 500m

Corellian Gunship 120m