balance in rebellion

[nordwindranger]

I know this has been talked about before---but i think people like to debate, and there haven't been a lot of new threads lately, so lets discuss

 

Personally I think that the Empire really gets the short end of the stick in Rebellion. If you use rebed, you will notice that most rebel ships have higher damage control rates than their imperial counterparts. This makes a huge difference.

 

For example:

A moncal cruiser can beat one on one a stardestroyer, vic sd, vic II, and I believe it can also beat a strike cruiser.

 

In other words the Imperials do not have a significant counter until the SD II comes on the scene. However the SD II has a damage control rate of 35, whereas its rebel counterpart has a damage control rate of 45. The damage control rate of the bulwark (40) is double that of the SSD (20). I don't think I have to post the fighter stats...

 

So what this means is that the imperial player has lost the arms race once the rebel has researched moncals. This would be balanced out if the imperial player started out with a sizeable force, but because of the fighter inferiority, the starting sd can be chewed up by an escort carrier.

 

what are your thoughts?

 

edit: I forgot to mention that the strike cruiser has a damage control of 10, one of the worst in the game!!!!!

[Defender_16]

Strike Cruiser is already overpowered in Rebellion compared to what it's supposed to be. Crappy dmg control is kind of a balance I guess.

 

I agree with being able to chew up the Destroyers early on with Escort Carriers. The Imperial Fleet basically can't go it's separate ways like it needs to in order to project Imperial power because of the Starfighter threat. The Empire get's cheaper fighters yes because you're always replacing them. If you wipe out the Rebel Starfighters it takes them much longer to rebuild then for the Empire.

 

If the game is unedited there's really little insentive to go into the outer Rim at the start as the Rebels if you can make it in the Core. It's really not that hard to beat the Imperials in the Diplomacy battle or with incite uprising giving you half the Core before the Empire takes all of Sesweena.

 

The game isn't balanced I agree. It would balance better if there were some additional advantages to the Empire in the Core and the Rebels in the Outer Rim. That way the Rebels would got for the rim earlier on and give the Empire a chance in the Core systems.

[Jahled]

I've always thought that damage control worked the other way round, with a higher value taking more time to repair; hence the Mon Calamri Cruiser indeed being 'difficult to repair' as stated tin the manual.

[nordwindranger]

Jahled,

 

Im pretty sure the higher the damage control, the better. Have you ever noticed that knocked out mon cals will often repair themselves in a battle well before other ships do?

 

Also notice that in general more expensive ships have higher damage control rates---for example the transports all have a damage control of 5, and they are easily destroyed.

[Jahled]

Jahled,

 

Im pretty sure the higher the damage control, the better. Have you ever noticed that knocked out mon cals will often repair themselves in a battle well before other ships do?

 

No, when I last played rebels a couple of years ago I seem to remember heavily damaged Mon Cal's taking yonks to repair. In my gameplay experience, the lower the damage control rating, the quicker the ship repairs itself after a battle.

 

Also notice that in general more expensive ships have higher damage control rates---for example the transports all have a damage control of 5, and they are easily destroyed.

 

Transports are easily destroyed because they have very low hull and shield ratings- nothing to do with damage control. Damage control doesn't really have any significance during an actual tactical battle; that's the shield rate your watching ebb and flow, and once that's gone, the hull value being blasted away with subsequent loss of fire power, drives, etc.

 

As an example, Cain made a TC where he revamped the CC-9600 Frigate to a 'Nemesis,' Cruiser, featuring advanced nano-self repairing technology, and with a damage control of one. Give the TC a go, and you'll see how it works!

[Krytos]

Jahled,

 

Im pretty sure the higher the damage control, the better. Have you ever noticed that knocked out mon cals will often repair themselves in a battle well before other ships do?

 

No, when I last played rebels a couple of years ago I seem to remember heavily damaged Mon Cal's taking yonks to repair. In my gameplay experience, the lower the damage control rating, the quicker the ship repairs itself after a battle.

 

I'll second this. One of the last games I played, I avoided even building Mon Cals in high volume due (3 of them I think) to the time they took to repair - I much preferred other vessel, a combination of an Assault Frigate or CC-9600 with a fighter carrier for example.

[Eagle]

Not to forget one thing that is that imperial comanders have a much higher comanding-rate than those of the rebells. As far as I can remember there is no one with a comanding-rate less than 100, while the rebells haven´t got anyone with more than 100. If a vessel is comanded by Dorja for example, it will be much harder to defeat it.

[The Crazy Psychopath]

In multiplayer you don't let your opponent even get to that point, playing as Imperials.

[nordwindranger]

heh well guess I was wrong about that!

 

well that really throws everything around, I guess the strike cruiser is actually a pretty nice deal then.

 

so if that is true.. why can a mon cal always beat a star destroyer?

They have the same shield and shield recharge. A star destroyer has 100 laser and 100 ion, whereas a mon cal has 120 laser and only 60 ion. I always thought damage control factored into how long your weapons and shields would last before being broken, which would explain why (in my experience) the mon cal seems to be able to handle damage better. However if damage control is the lower the better, the star destroyer should have the advantage (more ions and hull should balance out the mon cals heavier lasers).

 

The star destroyer has a weapon recharge of 20, whereas the mon cal has a recharge of 18----I always assumed a higher recharge is better (the ssd has a recharge of 70! ) This must be true because the star galleon has a recharge of 1, and it definitely doesn't fire fast.

[Jahled]

so if that is true.. why can a mon cal always beat a star destroyer?

 

They can't, one-to-one, under the game's unaltered settings. So I know not where you are getting this.

[nordwindranger]

so if that is true.. why can a mon cal always beat a star destroyer?

 

They can't, one-to-one, under the game's unaltered settings. So I know not where you are getting this.

 

eh What??

 

I thought I had tested that out with a friend a couple years ago.

 

well i guess im wrong on all accounts

 

I resign from this discussion in shame

[Eagle]

Lol!

 

No, Mon Calamari Cruisers are no match to any Star Destroyer. Their shields are much too weak. You will need at least two of them, maybe even in a combination with Nebulon Frigates, to win against a SD.

 

Maybe you´re X- or Y-Wings did a really good job against the SD. I rather guess that´s why you´ve won the combat long ago in a galaxy far far away...

[Defender_16]

Wow, all this time I thought that a higher damage control number meant faster repairs in battle...

 

Wait a second, I tried that in my Gundam Mod. Since none of the ships had shields I had to put the damage control up to an insanely high number. It worked too.

My problem with that mod though was that the weapons didn't do nearly enough hull damage.

[nordwindranger]

Lol!

 

No, Mon Calamari Cruisers are no match to any Star Destroyer. Their shields are much too weak. You will need at least two of them, maybe even in a combination with Nebulon Frigates, to win against a SD.

 

Maybe you´re X- or Y-Wings did a really good job against the SD. I rather guess that´s why you´ve won the combat long ago in a galaxy far far away...

 

according to rebed they have the same shields...

perhaps thats the mon cal's high damage control number coming into play by taking out its shields early

 

I must admit that I still am not completely convinced about all this, I guess I'll have to go into rebellion for some testing..

 

edit: testing complete. after some screwing around i managed to get a no fighters battle between a sd and a mon cal and the sd won! I was suprised

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Underdog and I tried out a bunch of different combinations one time before I moved away from where I went to high school. ISD1 vs. MonCal, no fighters: Imp victory. ISD1 (I think. It might have been ISD2) vs. Dauntless, no fighters: very even fight, but Imps win. Both of these battles with fighters result in a Rebel victory. Bulwarks withought fighters lose to SSD's withought fighters, but with fighters in the battle, Bulwarks win. We found that in the capital ship only battles, the Imps would win more often, but as soon as fighters showed up, the Imps often got their asses handed to them.

[Eagle]

I can remember that once I´ve managed to defend Yavin from two SDs with just 3 or 4 X-Wings. They had no Fighter´s and no Lancer-Frigates with. ROFL!

[PsychoInfiltrator]

And that's why, as the Imps, I never build fighters. I build Carracks and then Lancers once they arrive, and all fighters get shipped to Coruscant, unless they're really out in the middle of nowhere. Lancers in aprtiuclar are far cheaper than fighters for killing power, and can take an awful lot more repairable damage than fighters can. Three Lancers is enough to handle the fighter complements of most Rebel fleets without losing a Lancer, and six is murder. Cheap murder.

[Jahled]

In the post's long haul, this is why I don't play by the game's original setting's. The non-hyper-drive imperial fighter EU thing that has sprung up by retards is simply pathetic, the more so given lack of shields. A glorious tactical philosophy in combat , and utter bollocks during actual game play. I watched a Star Destroyer get destroyed by rebel fighters once whilst Imperial fighters were being deployed before I gave up on this madness. Utter crap.

 

According to the game rebel fighters spend something like two months sat in that cop-pit unable to shit etc before they turn up 'fresh' for a battle, whilst the Empire has skillfully left it's TIE's in orbit for a year waiting to be attacked..

 

all this makes complete sense.

 

I have lot's more to rant about, but must dash for some ale..

[Eagle]

Oh, I like Ties. They are cheap, very fast built and they can knock out rebel fighters if they are outnumbered. Later when the Tie Bomber is invented you also can lower the capital ships shields down with them. Of course they are no match against an X- or A-Wing, but later when the Tie-Interceptor is available the ballance is back again.

[nordwindranger]

Eagle, did your avatar always blink? creepy

 

The major problem with ties is that the attrition rate is so high that you have to be replacing them after every battle. If your fleets are active you will quickly run into a shortage of them.

 

By the mid to end game I find that I usually am assigning each fleet around 6 lancer frigates. They are more effective than the fighters in the long run, however they don't do as good of a job of distracting the fighters from preying on capital ships.

[Eagle]

Ties are also useful in distracting enemy vessels and fighters. They rather shoot your fighters first instead of your ships. That gives you a little bit time to bring your ships in range and fire first. While the X-Wings are about to destroy your Ties, the lancers can take them out very easy or at least reduce their strength. I´ve got a carrier in my fleet very often and it´s very helpful. Like mentioned, you can´t compare rebel and imp fighters 1:1. That´s impossible. You need another kind of tactics in using Ties than in using X-Wings. That´s my point of view as an old W40K-Veteran.

Eagle, did your avatar always blink? creepy

It´s alive!

[Defender_16]

As far as the default settings go in a strait ship battle it should favour the Imps. The ISD's are purpose built warships while the Mon Cal and Dauntless are converted passenger liners. The Imperial ships should be stronger.

But that said the Mol Cal ships should have redundant shields making up for it lack of weapons compared to Imp Warships. So the ISD1 may not actually have as much Turbolaser power as it should compared to the Mon Cal in Rebellion.

 

How much Turbolaser damage does 1 Turbolaser do?

 

The ISD has something like 70 TL (Wookiepedia is up in arms over what the real weapons load is. )

ISD2 100 TL and 20 Ion

The Liberty type has 48 TL and 20 Ion

[DarthTex]

I've always thought that damage control worked the other way round, with a higher value taking more time to repair

OK, I have the answer to the question via some testing. In the Gaming Stories forums, in one of my posts (last paragraph), a Victory Star Destroyer got its clock cleaned: Hyperdrive, shield & weapon recharge are all 0.

Normal damage control for a Vic SD is 20, so I set the game to FAST and let it run for 100 days; results = no change.

I set damage control to 1, reloaded the game, set the game to FAST and let it run for 100 days; results = no change.

I set damage control to 100, reloaded the game, set the game to FAST and let it run for 100 days; results = Shields are halfway repaired.

I set damage control to 500, reloaded the game, set the game to FAST and let it run for 100 days; results = the entire ship is 100% operational.

 

Conclusion: the higher the damage control value the better.

 

I hope that this will settle that question for now on

[Defender_16]

Yay Tex! I feel all better now. (As I imagine your Vic does too.)

[nordwindranger]

So I wasn't just imagining that the Mon Cal has a damage control advantage.

 

as far as actual armament vs in game armament goes

 

(steps up on podium) "well in my game...blah blah blah"

 

Doesn't the Star Destroyer have 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons? I'm using the stats from the "essential guide to vehicles and vessels" book.

 

One on one with no fighters, a star destroyer currently kicks some major mon cal butt. The problem is I just had to guess values for shields and hulls, so there is going to be a long period of balancing until things work like i think they should. (the mc 90 will beat and ISD I, and tie an ISD II probably)