Religion... and stuff

[Guest Scathane]

*BTW, Scath, that was a bit harsh in your post- not making any judgements about you, merely what you wrote-people have to have been around for a bit before you can openly BEAK/moch us

I wasn't beaking or mocking anyone... It's just that I have a hard time believing people who make dubious claims...

 

And maybe people should have been around for a bit before they start judging other community members about their ideas. I'll say it again Tofu: I'm all for debate but I don't take that kind of thing lightly...

[Jahled]

And maybe people should have been around for a bit before they start judging other community members about their ideas.

 

Emm... i'm always slightly suspicious when someone's first post has nothing to do with Starwars...

 

On a broader note, this community has tackled various religious issues with considerable maturity of late, which is to be commended by all, given the potential for fireworks with the less intelligent amongst society. Let's keep it that way. Ultimately this is a StarWars site. We are all here because we love Star Wars. We didn't come here primarily because of some form of spiritual belief. So no one should take other people's personnal views or opinions on this particular 'outside interest' to the core!

 

Visit zoos.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

The problem about your religion is that it is solely based on your feelings.

What's wrong w/ following something that makes you feel better? Just because you don't want to join a certain church doesn't mean you need to openly berate and demean that church or the thoughts/feelings/beliefs of the members of said church. Some people only make it through their day because the have faith, because they have their religion. Let them have it. In turn you might just meet some very neat people. Heck, you might even learn something from them.

 

So, stop praying until you feel good, open your eyes and face reality.

And the reality is:

There is absolutely no evidence for the historicity of the book of Mormon, not a single one. No city was found, no coin, no archaeological finding at all. The "reformed egyptian" is unknown to scholars, the Grammar Joseph Smith wrote for reformed egyptian is only taken into account by linguists if they need something for the joke page of their journal.

Moreover, Joseph Smith failed on every occasion to prove that he is indeed a prophet. When someone stole parts of his manuscripts, a real prophet would have rewritten them word by word (Jer 36,32), but Smith just wrote a similar story "from another point of view" to hide the fact that he couldn't reproduce it, as he had made it all up.

Are you so naive as to think that when he reproduced the original manuscript of the Book of Lehi that the people of that time would've said, 'Hey he made a perfect replica, he must be the genuine article.' They wouldn't have. They would've said 'Hey, we've got his original and it matches perfectly w/ this new one. Let's change the original so it looks like he's a liar.' Also there is an entire book that has been published that ties ancient indian monuments/ruins to the events of the BOM (Book of Mormon). If you want the name I can make a few phone calls/send out a few email and get the name for you.

 

Ok, just my two cents on your attempt to do an online-mission.

What makes you think this is an online-mission?

 

I just want to mention that it is optimal to gather as much

information as possible, therefore browsing the internet is indeed

a good thing to do inspite of "Elder John"'s advice to stay away from

it and only talk to "people who know about the LDS church", that is,

missionaries trained to manipulate the feelings and free will of people who are unsure about direction in life.

Do you even know what you are talking about? LDS Missionaries are NOT trained to manipulate anyone's feelings or free will. If they were my brother, who recently came home from his mission, would've convinced me to become active in the church again, as well as convincing me to go on my own mission. He's tried to do both and he has failed. He's been trying since before he got back.

 

My main reason for not being religious is because they all (I think?) tell you what you should and shouldn't do. Humans reach an age when they know the difference between right and wrong i.e Thou Shall Not kill, Thou shall not steal ect I know this already. It's called having 'Morals'.

Most morals have roots in religious beliefs I think.

 

*BTW, Scath, that was a bit harsh in your post- not making any judgements about you, merely what you wrote-people have to have been around for a bit before you can openly BEAK/moch us

I wasn't beaking or mocking anyone... It's just that I have a hard time believing people who make dubious claims...

 

And maybe people should have been around for a bit before they start judging other community members about their ideas. I'll say it again Tofu: I'm all for debate but I don't take that kind of thing lightly...

Tofu, I didn't read any BEAKing/mocking. What I read was a debater in his element. If people want to take that the wrong way then that is their choice.

 

And Scath, I've gained an appreciation for your views. I enjoy reading your arguements in every debate you get involved in. I don't always agree w/ them, but they are (almost) always valid points.

 

I think Jahled has made an excellent point. We should all take his advice anytime we post in this thread from now on.

On a broader note, this community has tackled various religious issues with considerable maturity of late, which is to be commended by all, given the potential for fireworks with the less intelligent amongst society. Let's keep it that way.

[Mad78]

I have been reading a few of the latest posts (not the longest ones for i find it hard to read very long texts from a computer screen) and i must say its nice that the community memebers are mature enough so that this conversation hasn't yet exploded into open conflict between some of the people participating in the debat.

Just wanted to say this.

[Jahled]

I have been reading a few of the latest posts (not the longest ones for i find it hard to read very long texts from a computer screen) and i must say its nice that the community memebers are mature enough so that this conversation hasn't yet exploded into open conflict between some of the people participating in the debat.

Just wanted to say this.

 

You know M, my friend, I think on that note a woo is in order:

 

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e253/Jahled/greatballsofwoo.gif

 

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Just came across this quote and thought I should share it w/ all who are following this thread.

There are sadistic scientists who hurry to hunt down errors instead of establishing the truth.

[Jahled]

Just came across this quote and thought I should share it w/ all who are following this thread.

There are sadistic scientists who hurry to hunt down errors instead of establishing the truth.

 

YAY for gibberish! Like who is Marie Curie?](can't be arsed to google)

[Mad78]

 

You know M, my friend, I think on that note a woo is in order:

 

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e253/Jahled/greatballsofwoo.gif

 

I'll drink to that

 

Marie Curie and her husband where two french physisists. They discovered Radium and opened the way to the study of radiation without which the medicine we have acces to ow would not exist. Sadly for them the husband was knocked over by a horse carrage and Marie died of radiation.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Please see this page for information on Marie Curie.

 

(can't be arsed to google)

Huh?

 

...we have acces to ow would not exist.

Should't that be now Mad?

[Master_Xan]

Wow, did this topic ever change direction... then again, I suppose I did title it 'religion... and stuff', so perhaps discussion on Marie Curie does sort of fit.

 

To answer Zarkonacas: I'm not from Utah, I'm from South Dakota. I am planning to go on a mission soon, but have not left yet. I'm not out to convert anybody with this discussion, and I'm sorry if you (or Omotesenke) are taking my posts as such an attempt. When I read your last post, it sounded to me like you are either trying to convince yourself of what you say, or that you don't know much of what you're talking about and are making things up. In either case, you haven't said anything new or particularly noteworthy from your other posts, so I'm going to assume that by answering your points I would thus engage myself in a never-ending argument, from which there is no escape. Not to offend, but I think I'll avoid that by not responding in depth.

 

Hey, Elder Online-Missionary,

Didn't know they are sending you on a virtual mission as well.

So take care you don't get on one of the many bad bad anti-lds sites,

cause you will lose your temple recommend if read about the spirit of critique.

There is no such thing as a 'virtual mission'. I do this for fun, I enjoy discussions and I enjoy hearing people's viewpoints on such heavy issues as religion and politics.

 

The problem about your religion is that it is solely based on your feelings...

This might be suitable for the romance period, where everyone was looking within.

However, times have changed. The scientific progress within the last centuries make it impossible to neglect outer truths and realities.

Should religion be based on facts, when no religion can be proved? Should you always ignore your feelings? ("Search your feelings Luke, you know it to be true..." As a StarWars site, I'd almost feel bad if I didn't put that in here ) The LDS church is not based soley upon feelings, but we do not view scientific fact as the method to prove ourselves correct in spiritual matters. There is too much that can't be proven, so we have fun looking at the facts without taking much stock in them. Lets face it, science is always redefining itself and its outlook. A religion shouldn't do that.

 

So, stop praying until you feel good, open your eyes and face reality.

If you feel good when you aren't praying, then you're not praying to the right person. I feel good when I pray, and empty when I don't.

 

I just want to mention that it is optimal to gather as much

information as possible, therefore browsing the internet is indeed

a good thing to do inspite of "Elder John"'s advice to stay away from

it and only talk to "people who know about the LDS church", that is,

missionaries trained to manipulate the feelings and free will of people who are unsure about direction in life.

To echo Mitth, missionaries don't receive training to manipulate. Have you ever met a missionary? Come on, most of them are young guys just out of high school, nervous and without much real-world experience. Seriously, they aren't much for manipulators. Most of the time they're doing good if they can speak the language fluently; many missionaries go to another country and have only three months to learn the language.

 

Browsing the internet is a good way to gather information... if you can find an objective report. Religion and politics are not topics just overflowing with objective reports. With everything you read or see, you have to decide if the writer is making things up or putting a bad spin on things, taking them out of context or leaving out information. When you don't have any other source of information, you can get a pretty skewed version of the story. I don't recommend online research into LDS doctrine because my experience is that the writers are trying to demonize us, or simply don't know what they are talking about. Not long ago I saw a site that had critical points of our doctrine wrong, not on purpose but simply because they didn't know what our doctrine was. They gathered their information from other sites that also didn't know. Much better to talk to a member if you have questions, and that way you can avoid 'those manipulative missionaries'.

 

Why all the long posts? If you have something to say, just say it.

Ah, you obviously missed the earlier post about looking smart by posting big things that nobody reads... Honestly, I can get a little wordy sometimes. Call it a weakness, but if I try and cut it down people just get confused. I'm not the best writer in the world.

 

Ok, so we have a few atheists who have posted some thoughts, some sort of combination of ex-catholic/ex-mormon, and then the mormon guy (aka me). What about the rest of you? I like how nobody has broken down into outright anger and random name-calling. Who else has some thoughts on religion? I'd really like to talk to a Buddhist, but sadly I've never met one. I always hear about the other major religions, but never Buddhism. And hearing from a believer is better then others like me who have studied it a little but believe it. They're much more knowledgeable

[Jahled]

Marie Curie and her husband where two french physisists. They discovered Radium and opened the way to the study of radiation without which the medicine we have acces to ow would not exist. Sadly for them the husband was knocked over by a horse carrage and Marie died of radiation.

 

Cool! Bloody horse-drawn-bloody-carriages killing and maiming society all over the place as per normal...thank god they don't have anything motorized... Poor Marie! Only when she started to glow did she wonder something was a bit odd! Yikes! But thankiness to the explo dude!

 

There is too much that can't be proven, so we have fun looking at the facts without taking much stock in them. Lets face it, science is always redefining itself and its outlook.

 

Science has a track record with it's outlook that outshines spiritual belief. It's got our mobile phones working, satalights in orbit, medical brake-through progress, and fantastic images of the universe incressingly almost at year zero...

 

Spiritual belief on the other hand, has given humanity a rather conveniant 'option-out' of the 'hard-facts' with what it possible with the cosmos we live, that sort of work btw. Ain't aimed at you Xan, but I see a sea of evangelic muppits poncing around life's stage making out they've got the creator's message and cure what science hasn't figured out, and yet can't regenerate a lost limb. Rah! But having just said that, your lot don't go in for all that cash-motivated crap.

 

Buddhist-thingy: I spent a couple of weeks at a monestary, and left aged about twenty having realized I wasn't upto to a whole day of mediation. As a spiritual path it does seem more sensible than any of the divine/Thor/Ishtar/Odin religious belief, disguised as Christian/Muslim/Pagan, which always seem to ultimataly end in questions created by a human brain applying language and thought.

 

*bling*

[Zarkonacas]

Like you Said yes, trust you feelings and hear to them... "Luke you knew it is true and if you are still unsure you can make a test my the Doctor to get sure that Vader is you Father" Look however you turn it or even you ignore my post you cant ignore the truth about DNA and the Book of Abraham forever. Feelings and Knowlege goes Hand in Hadn. We knew for Sure christ lifed and that can be proven.

 

Just like a True Religion can save a Untrue has the power to destroy. Jesus said you been buyd expansive and you are free, never be a slave again act like a free man. Most Churches just want the money of someone if i compare what i have payd as a mormon and then again as a cahtolic it is a way too big differnce as a mormon per sprecialy per year, Lets compare it.

 

First lets say you make 1000 Euro per month that would be in germany the fellowing by the churches.

 

Would be as a Mormon per Month: 100 Euro as a Catholic 5.625 Euro

Would be as a Mormon per Year 1200 Euro as a Catholic 67.50 Euro

 

Makes a differnce of just 1132.5 Euro per year... and i cant even see how the mormon church spent the money... but in the catholic you get a paper every year where the money is going to be spent, i never get one as a mormon. But if they are honest why they dont tell it?

 

I mean the Lds ist a billlion times better then islam but there are a lot of things in it that are not right.

[BadSamaritan]

Religion, to me, is a problem for the world, and an answer for it. Throughout history, religion has caused wars, which have led to the deaths of countless people. Thousands more have been killed in the name of 'God' for refusing to convert to another persons religion. Then there were the witch hunts, the near destruction of Native American religons, and the massacre of an entire culture by the Spanish Conquistadors (It's a little known fact that Pizarro used a bible as part of his excuse to start his purge of the Incas.)

 

But at the same time, countless people look to religion to help them get through their daily lives. In difficult times, people need something to help them through, be it a pet, a friend, or 'God'. And in todays world, people world wide need all the help they can get.

 

Overall, religion is a necessary evil in my eyes. When I look at religion, I see a flawed system of hope, but a flawed system is better than no system at all. I personally think the world would have been a better place if religion had never existed, but that is neither here nor there.

Edited March 6, 2006 by BadSamaritan

[Master_Xan]

Most Churches just want the money of someone if i compare what i have payd as a mormon and then again as a cahtolic it is a way too big differnce as a mormon per sprecialy per year, Lets compare it.

 

First lets say you make 1000 Euro per month that would be in germany the fellowing by the churches.

 

Would be as a Mormon per Month: 100 Euro as a Catholic 5.625 Euro

Would be as a Mormon per Year 1200 Euro as a Catholic 67.50 Euro

 

Makes a differnce of just 1132.5 Euro per year... and i cant even see how the mormon church spent the money... but in the catholic you get a paper every year where the money is going to be spent, i never get one as a mormon. But if they are honest why they dont tell it?

 

hmm... why did you put 5.625 Euro? Why not round to 6? Anyway, I have no idea how much you would pay as a Catholic. I do know that tithing for Mormons is 10%. This seems a small thing to me, as tithing pays for my church building (good), temples (good), supplies (like paper for our church building, also good), and many other such things. And if you really break it down, what good is that money? From a spiritual perspective, zero. From a more financial perspective, it's not going to break the bank, and considering we don't drink or smoke, we end up equal with the rest of the world anyway. From a poor man's perspective, zero, considering the church gives aid to poorer families and is also known for its fast and complete responces in emergencies. And tithing isn't something we push with new converts, its not like anybody's trying to convert you for your money.

 

As for the report, I don't need them to tell me in great detail where every dime I gave them ended up. Nor do I desire to spend my time looking over the very large book that would end up containing it, and I certainly wouldn't wish the job of compiling that book upon anyone. Do you so distrust your church leaders that you simply must know what they are doing?

 

Rah! But having just said that, your lot don't go in for all that cash-motivated crap.

Well I'm glad somebody thinks so! I've actually noticed a decline in some of those sorts of churches, at least on the large scale anyway. Methinks people are getting a little wise to it. At least, I hope people are getting wise, rather then the churches simply getting better at getting away with it (so I never hear about them).

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I'm not going to put any credibility in a system that doesn't rely on facts. Thats a personal choice, just like you're willing to do the opposite, Xan. If things stayed like that, I doubt there would be a problem since everyone respects each other. However, the problem lies when radical religious people try to kill others, or try to push their religious views into political offices.

 

My problem isnt with religion, but rather people who bring it into the voting booth or those who hurt others because of religion

[Master_Xan]

I'll agree with that any day. Too bad we humans are usually too egotistical and stubborn.

 

That's another group of people I know little about, Muslims. Sure, I know all the media garbage about terrorists and whatever, but they don't tell you much about the normal, everyday followers of Islam. Just the radical ones. I suspect that Islamic followers as a whole are much better then the American media portrays them, and I wish I had the chance to talk to somebody who wasn't trying to get me to watch a news broadcast so they get paid.

[Guest Scathane]

I mean the Lds ist a billlion times better then islam but there are a lot of things in it that are not right.

Come again?!

 

That's another group of people I know little about, Muslims. Sure, I know all the media garbage about terrorists and whatever, but they don't tell you much about the normal, everyday followers of Islam. Just the radical ones. I suspect that Islamic followers as a whole are much better then the American media portrays them, and I wish I had the chance to talk to somebody who wasn't trying to get me to watch a news broadcast so they get paid.

That's more like it!