Religion... and stuff

[Master_Xan]

A carry-over from the creation/evolution thread... whatever you wanted to say there, say here, as now its on topic!

 

I don't believe in any religion. Mainly becuase they are all flawed.

 

Not trying to be smart (or a jerk for that matter), but I'm going to guess you don't know too much about most religions. Most people don't know squat about religion. If you are a rare person who has studied some religions, I'd still guess you don't know much about many (there are dozens of major religions, after all). It may not be that you find all religions flawed, but perhaps you simply need to look around a bit more before finding one you like.

 

And of course, as a Mormon I'd recommend checking us out... Though a warning for you; most websites about Mormons are waaaay out there. Best to find an actual person and ask them, the web isn't so reliable for fact-finding regarding religion. Too many heated arguments.

 

Emm.. not trying to offend, but isn't your religion yet another one that by it's virtue disables the rest of the planet from getting to heaven as non- subscribers? This notion has always humored me over the years given life on this planet predates the creation of thought.

 

On the contrary. LDS doctrine (the more official name for Mormon doctrine) teaches that you must be a member to reach heaven. But unlike all other religions I know of, you get a second chance. It really isn't very fair to require everyone to be a member, considering the large number of people who never had the chance to hear anything about Christ, much less LDS doctrine. After a person dies, they go to a 'spirit world' per se. Basically something to do between then and when Christ comes again (which will begin the ressurrection and judgement). While there they are taught and given the option to 'become members'. Even if you were to die just before the Second Coming, you'd still have at least a thousand years during the Millenium, allowing you plenty of time to decide.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Are you an RM Xan?

[Jahled]

I'm glad I have about a thousand years to make up my mind, *makes entry into non-existant blog*.

 

God, with all his supreme judgement took about thirteen billion years to figure on day of rest was all that was needed. So why spare the time. He needed time to pause on his majestic creation. Bloody marvelous from the onset wasn't it? An entire eco-system based around a 24 hour continouos slaughter of life on this particular rock, threatened by the fall out from supernovas from nearby stars which learned people say happens from time to time to bits of rock floating in space...

 

..a god I feel a real respect for...

[Zarkonacas]

First of all how could it be that the Book of Mormon says the Lamanits are the ancestors of the Indian people in north and Southamerica? What would mean they are Jews. There was an Lds Study that proved that about 99.9% that they have Asian DNA not Hebrew. The Sienctists of the Program left after the Results the Church.

 

Second, the Church said in 1967 that the "Lost Book of Abraham" in in New York, in 2002 there was a translation ot the book made by egyptologists. They said it is a Death Scroll for a death priest, the word abraham was not mention once in it...

 

3rd. The Doctrine Teach that Blacks are Cursed, just like in Lord of the Rings the Elven how became Orks. In the Book of mormon and the teaching of the Church they say: They are sons and daugters of Kain and they recived the Mark of him by Cursing them Black... "

The Doctrine was Changed 1978 when blacks were "Finally" able to recive the Priesthod.

 

4th. Take a look at the Navoo temple there is a pentagram on it in shape of a window... what should i think of a relion how deny the Cross but put Pentagrams on much of ther Buildings? The Catholic Church deny the Pentagram but has everywhere the Cross. So what Religon is fellowing hwo?

 

5th. Have you read the Doctrine and Convernats? Then Read the fellowing in 130:14-17 if i take it by the word it would mean Joseph would live until age of 85 or he would meat jesus when he died in the year 1891 when he returnd for the final jugement... this would made me wonder... so how to prove if he is a real profet read Deutorium in the bible on 18:21-22 then think about it was he a true profet or a false one? then Read Deutorium 18:20 and you find the answer. Becouse he died... if he was a true one like Jesaja he would not die. It is Written that god protect his profets of the dead by his own hand.

 

6.th I em not trying to attack you but you should think about what you belive and how you really serve. Not everyone how calls Lord will go into Heaven not even if he done wonders. its written in the New testament.

 

7.th If you think you Chruch is Honest then ask why they never show how high they income is of tightnig and more important where they send it. As a Catholic i get every year a paper where it is written in what they send money for exaple 25% in charity and 15% in maintrance... why does the LDS not talk about where they money go? Can i trust someone how dont wanna tell me where my money goes? Would you trust a Bank-Clerk if he dont want to say you where you money go?

 

8.th I hope you answer me a few ot it, if you like

[Mad78]

I'm glad I have about a thousand years to make up my mind, *makes entry into non-existant blog*.

 

God, with all his supreme judgement took about thirteen billion years to figure on day of rest was all that was needed. So why spare the time. He needed time to pause on his majestic creation. Bloody marvelous from the onset wasn't it? An entire eco-system based around a 24 hour continouos slaughter of life on this particular rock, threatened by the fall out from supernovas from nearby stars which learned people say happens from time to time to bits of rock floating in space...

 

..a god I feel a real respect for...

Always you usual funny self J

Interessting religious idea I must say MX.

[Master_Xan]

Ah, and now the real reason for why I moved this discussion away from the other thread... previously when I spoke in a forum about being Mormon, somebody either attacks my faith or raises questions. I didn't want to hijack the other thread, and that's what would have happened...

 

First of all how could it be that the Book of Mormon says the Lamanits are the ancestors of the Indian people in north and Southamerica? What would mean they are Jews. There was an Lds Study that proved that about 99.9% that they have Asian DNA not Hebrew. The Sienctists of the Program left after the Results the Church.

 

First I'd like to point you back to my previous post (that one was in the evolution/creation poll thread) which states that a religion shouldn't be chosen based upon facts. Part of what makes it religion is that there isn't enough proof to be taken as science. I should also point out that I'm not a great speller, but will do my best to spell things correctly.

 

With that in mind, I'll answer as best I can. The Lamanites are one group of what became Native Americans. There were several groups that came across, but we only have records from a few (only two that I can think of off the top of my head). These two records make mention of other groups. Because the Lamanite record ends with the destruction of the Nephites (it was actually a record of the Nephites and Lamanites, but with the death of the last prophet no one was left to write), we don't know how much intermixing there was among groups, nor do we know how many Lamanites were left after the wars that destroyed the Nephites. The second group of which we have records was the Jaradites, who managed to completely destroy themselves, save one man. It isn't too much to assume that the remaining Lamanites (including the descendants of the last Jaradite) mixed with other groups in the area, possibly those who came from Asia.

 

Second, the Church said in 1967 that the "Lost Book of Abraham" in in New York, in 2002 there was a translation ot the book made by egyptologists. They said it is a Death Scroll for a death priest, the word abraham was not mention once in it...

 

To be honest, I don't know which book you are refering to. I'd need more information, a link to a source, something, to be able to say much here.

 

3rd. The Doctrine Teach that Blacks are Cursed, just like in Lord of the Rings the Elven how became Orks. In the Book of mormon and the teaching of the Church they say: They are sons and daugters of Kain and they recived the Mark of him by Cursing them Black... "

The Doctrine was Changed 1978 when blacks were "Finally" able to recive the Priesthod.

 

I'd hardly compare "blacks" to orcs from Lord of the Ring. Such a comparison will get all sorts of people breathing down your neck... To clarify, being black is not a curse. Cain was cursed with dark skin, the reason being simply to set him apart. The Lord wanted His people to be able to distinguish themselves from Cain and his descendants. This was to prevent intermixing. Not because intermixing races is bad now or even then, but because their culture was. In keeping the people seperate, the Lord kept His people from being assimilated into their culture or from assimilating ideas from their culture, the biggest being the ideas and practice of idolitry. To read up on this, check out the Old Testament stories of Abraham and Lot (Lot being the one who ended up nearly being swallowed up by the Cainanites and having most of his family and all his posessions destroyed as a result).

 

Joseph Smith actually gave a black man the priesthood. He then received a revelation that he wasn't supposed to do that, and that it would later be allowed when the time was right. Why 1977 was the right year, I don't know, but that's when Pres. Kimball was told we could give the priesthood to black men. You should take into account that we were among the first churches to grant this right, and more importantly, one of the only churches that never segregated; i.e. most churches wouldn't even let blacks attend church, they had to have seperate congregations. This was never an issue with us.

 

4th. Take a look at the Navoo temple there is a pentagram on it in shape of a window... what should i think of a relion how deny the Cross but put Pentagrams on much of ther Buildings? The Catholic Church deny the Pentagram but has everywhere the Cross. So what Religon is fellowing hwo?

 

Which Navoo temple are you refering to? The old one which was left behind by the saints when they moved west (and was destroyed/vandalised/ect by those who had chased them out) or the new Navoo temple, built just recently? I've seen the Navoo temple, my parents even went to its dedication. I don't recall seeing a pentagram. In addition, I'd hardly say that 'much of our buildings' would be an accurate description of one temple. There are over 100 temples throughout the world and litterally hundreds of thousands of church buildings.

 

You're right, the Catholic Church does have the cross everywhere. Why would we want to constantly remind ourselves of a symbol of death? That is, after all, what happened on the cross, is it not? Now before you get yourself in a knot, I know that Catholics don't view the cross as a symbol of death. But the most important thing isn't that Christ died on the cross, its what He did before that. In the Garden of Gethsemane (sp?), where the Atonement actually happened. Mormons don't view the cross as such an all-important symbol, and as such there is no reason to display it everywhere.

 

5th. Have you read the Doctrine and Convernats? Then Read the fellowing in 130:14-17 if i take it by the word it would mean Joseph would live until age of 85 or he would meat jesus when he died in the year 1891 when he returnd for the final jugement... this would made me wonder... so how to prove if he is a real profet read Deutorium in the bible on 18:21-22 then think about it was he a true profet or a false one? then Read Deutorium 18:20 and you find the answer. Becouse he died... if he was a true one like Jesaja he would not die. It is Written that god protect his profets of the dead by his own hand.

 

I have read the D&C. You read it incorrectly. It says that if Joseph lived to the age of 85, he would "see the face of the Son of Man". Joseph Smith didn't live to be anywhere near 85, nor does it say whether this is a reference to the Second Coming, a vision, or if he lived that long that he would then die and thus see Christ. In fact, if you read verse 16, Smith even speculates to this end.

 

Assuming you were refering to Deuteronomy (I can spell it only because I'm looking right at it... ), then you take things out of context. The chapter discusses two prophets, the first being 'Prophet' and the second being 'prophet'. The first is a reference to Christ, who obviously had the gift of prophesy. The second is talking about telling the difference between real and false prophets. Am I to take it that if Joseph Smith was a prophet, he would have lived forever? How come Moses isn't still around then? What about Adam or any of the other prophets? The Lord will protect a prophet, or any other person, if their faith is sufficient and if they need to be protected. Joseph Smith had sufficient faith, but he was not necessary for the continuation of the church. He had already accomplished his most important mission, and his death was arguably the best thing to happen at the time for the early saints. Surely not the way anyone wanted it to happen, but the mobs believed that once Smith was killed, the church would fall appart. So when he died, the tension eased up on the saints, allowing them the chance to move west.

 

6.th I em not trying to attack you but you should think about what you belive and how you really serve. Not everyone how calls Lord will go into Heaven not even if he done wonders. its written in the New testament.

 

How many 19 yr old guys do you know who are both capable and willing to have a discussion like this? Trust me, I wouldn't believe what I do if I hadn't thought about it a lot, read a lot of scriptures, done lots of studying, and most importantly, lots and lots and lots of praying.

 

7.th If you think you Chruch is Honest then ask why they never show how high they income is of tightnig and more important where they send it. As a Catholic i get every year a paper where it is written in what they send money for exaple 25% in charity and 15% in maintrance... why does the LDS not talk about where they money go? Can i trust someone how dont wanna tell me where my money goes? Would you trust a Bank-Clerk if he dont want to say you where you money go?

 

8.th I hope you answer me a few ot it, if you like

 

I happen to know my ward clerk, he and I are good friends. So yes, I do trust him, and I know and trust all the other people who come into contact with the money at my local ward. In addition, all these people have their own jobs and are not supported in any way by the church. This means they are less likely and less able to move money to where it shouldn't be. They are also only in their positions for a few years; a ward clerk normally is released from his position and called to a new one after 3-5 years. This further reduces oppertunity (and temptation).

 

As for higher up the chain, I know and trust the people who work with money at the stake level (sort of a regional or district level). They are also unpaid volunteers. They too don't stay in their position forever, but are released and called to do something else after a few years (a little longer this time, perhaps 6-10 years). Keep going up and you will eventually reach a level where the people are not volunteers. I still trust them, even having never met them. How many scandals involving Mormons and such things do you know of? Sure there are a few, but not enough to make me worry about it any more then I worry about walking across the street. So to you I would ask this question: Do you feel better because you can see an end-of-year report about your church's finances, or do you honestly not trust the people in charge of the money? And more importantly, what makes you think they'd tell you if they used it in a way you wouldn't approve of? Wouldn't they just leave that off of the report? I'm not trying to say you're distrusting, but I really don't know why I'd even want such a report.

 

I'm glad I have about a thousand years to make up my mind, *makes entry into non-existant blog*.

 

God, with all his supreme judgement took about thirteen billion years to figure on day of rest was all that was needed. So why spare the time. He needed time to pause on his majestic creation. Bloody marvelous from the onset wasn't it? An entire eco-system based around a 24 hour continouos slaughter of life on this particular rock, threatened by the fall out from supernovas from nearby stars which learned people say happens from time to time to bits of rock floating in space...

 

..a god I feel a real respect for...

 

Hmm... sarcasm, or serious? I personally kinda like how we are threatened by the fallout of supernovas, considering it hasn't happened. Isn't it nice to know somebody is looking out for us? In any case, the complexity of life (aka 24 hour continouos slaughter of life) is also something I find particularly interesting. What a beautiful, complicated, and wonderous world we live in... (do I sound like a priest yet? No? Dang, better try harder).

 

Seriously, wouldn't it be a little boring if we all sat around eating grass? No lions or tigers or bears? Oh wait, grass is alive too. Ok, now we have to absorb sunlight (or find another means of obtaining energy without consuming something, like say thermal vents). Much less interesting, and then we'd loose many of those wonderful parables people like to repeat! You know, the ones about a man walking in the woods when he comes upon a tiger and...

 

Are you an RM Xan?

 

Nope, just getting ready to leave. Should happen around June... don't worry, you'll hear about it.

 

(Dang, this has got to be the longest post since... since... well, I dunno. Just since!)

[Guest Scathane]

6.th I em not trying to attack you but you should think about what you belive and how you really serve...

Good point!

 

Not everyone how calls Lord will go into Heaven not even if he done wonders. its written in the New testament.

Errr... So, what you're actually saying is not so much that Mormons should think about what they believe and how they really serve, but rather that they should read the New Testament and become Catholic? How typical... Mormons are doing the same... at least they have the common courtesy to grant us 1,000 years of contemplation...

[DarthTofu]

Joseph would live until age of 85 or he would meat jesus when he died in the year 1891 when he returnd for the final jugement...

 

So Joseph killed Jesus? Sorry, had BEAK that one since Scath wasn't going to... I'll throw my two bits in, even though it has already been thrown into the "Religion" thread I made some time ago which eventually became "Buddhists are very nice, very good people in general." I am an atheist, but I am no longer an "Angry atheist". I'll explain that- Angry atheists, one of whom I used to be, would capitalize "atheist" to make it an official religion, which it really isn't. They would also argue continuously with Christians about what the church has done in the past, and can go on for days doing it and talking out their ass because they never read the bible. Oh, yes, and one of the chief things that pisses them off is those who attempt to convert them, which makes them extremely determined to spread word of their faith, which is essentially trying to convert the Christians.

 

Now I realize that it isn't worth arguing over religions at all, so I primarily stay out of such discussions... Though if you try to convert me, Church of Christ or whatever you may be, I will kick your ass!

[Master_Xan]

Yay! An atheist who actually admits to never having read the Bible!!

 

:Bows in respect to Mr. Honest Atheist:

 

I've met many an atheist, and most will claim they've read every major religious text known to mankind... yet when they talk about them, its fairly obvious that in reality, all they read is the anti-religion stuff online. Although I must admit, one guy in my school was an atheist and probably had read every major religious text known...

Dead Sea Scrolls (check)

Quoran (check)

Bible (check)

various Hindi books (check)

Book of Mormon (partially read, so half-check)

ect. ect.

 

I've come to realize arguing religion isn't going to get anybody converted any-which-way, even if you're trying to do so. Arguing just makes people defensive. So when I argue/debate religion, I don't even bother to make such an attempt. If they are thinking of joining us wacky Mormons, they aren't likely to argue. So if anybody gets the impression I'm trying to convert them, I apologize.

[Zarkonacas]

I found a link where you can see by yourself what is it about with the Book of Abraham, you know the pearl of great price i think that is it in english. I em from germany so i hope you people dont get mad if i made so many grammer mistakes

 

Here the Link 4 Clips of the docomentation what was made in 2002

 

http://www.bookofabraham.info/VideoClips.htm

 

I em a Former Mormon i was nearly 5 years active in services i was mission ward leader, first concellor of the elder collegion and a few other callings. When i joined the church i thought so many nice people and they try so hard to live the gospel. I also fell in Love with a girl during my time of investigation she felt in love with me too... one problem what we have in europe is that we dont have much resources of the Church History. Like the DNA problem in the first page of the book of Mormon it si written that "All" Native Americans are Lamanits what makes the problem with the DNA so big is that 99.9% of the probes of 175 different Tribes of Native American show that ther are asian not jewish.

 

I em since nearly a year inactive, i em 24 years old and i just want to start a new life based on truth not on fictional ideas what turnd out to be a fraud.

 

In my time in the church i lost nearly all my friends from outside they belived i was in a cult...

 

However you turn the Page you cant say the Book of Abraham is True, however you twist you mind you cant ignore that DNA is a technology that cant be ignored... however you say toward youself the chruch is truth you shoulden forget about the history. if you take the story away you take the faith away and during the history there are big questions that the church is not willing to answer.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Zarkonacas, I've also been inactive for about a year. But, I know that many people rely on their faith to get them through the day. Because of that I try not to say anything negative about other people's faiths and/or beliefs. NOW, to everyone else reading this, I'm fairly certain that I HAVE said somethings that could be seen as going against what I've just said. For that I am sorry.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. DNA is a technology? I thought it was a biological strain of acids. Isn't technology the tools used by a species for a purpose? Maybe you meant DNA testing. I'm not sure.

 

Anyway, how nice of God to set aside "his" people from the Cainanites. He's a swell guy.

[Jahled]

Yay! An atheist who actually admits to never having read the Bible!!

 

:Bows in respect to Mr. Honest Atheist:

 

I've met many an atheist, and most will claim they've read every major religious text known to mankind... yet when they talk about them, its fairly obvious that in reality, all they read is the anti-religion stuff online. Although I must admit, one guy in my school was an atheist and probably had read every major religious text known...

Dead Sea Scrolls (check)

Quoran (check)

Bible (check)

various Hindi books (check)

Book of Mormon (partially read, so half-check)

ect. ect.

 

I've come to realize arguing religion isn't going to get anybody converted any-which-way, even if you're trying to do so. Arguing just makes people defensive. So when I argue/debate religion, I don't even bother to make such an attempt. If they are thinking of joining us wacky Mormons, they aren't likely to argue. So if anybody gets the impression I'm trying to convert them, I apologize.

 

 

:Bows in respect for composure!

 

I undoubtably don't share some of your own spiritual beliefs, but I sure as hell respect your right to have any. I also respect your liberal-minded thinking when approaching the always tricky subject of spirituality.

 

Actually, I think this might apply to everyone... so yay to y'all!

[Master_Xan]

I found a link where you can see by yourself what is it about with the Book of Abraham, you know the pearl of great price i think that is it in english. I em from germany so i hope you people dont get mad if i made so many grammer mistakes

 

Ah, now that helps a little. One of the statements on the site is particularly noteworthy, so I'll repeat it here:

 

"But discrepancies in the copied illustrations were an early clue to Egyptologists that the Mormon prophet may not have understood the ancient Egyptian language."

 

Dang right he didn't. Joseph Smith didn't know much of anything about Egyptian writing. The guy had hardly any formal education, nothing really beyond elementary school. He didn't translate anything, he merely wrote down what he was told to write from the spirit. It comes down to faith and prayer as to whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet; if you believe he was then his 'translation' of the scroll is the correct one, and if you don't believe he was then there's absolutely nothing I can say or do to change your mind. There are several things that just can't be explained by the mind with the knowledge we have, and while this may seem like an easy way to weasel out of answering, that's not what I'm trying to do. You can't understand really understand love until you've felt it in your heart; this is similar, something that can only be understood through experience with the Holy Ghost.

 

I em a Former Mormon i was nearly 5 years active in services i was mission ward leader, first concellor of the elder collegion and a few other callings. When i joined the church i thought so many nice people and they try so hard to live the gospel. I also fell in Love with a girl during my time of investigation she felt in love with me too... one problem what we have in europe is that we dont have much resources of the Church History. Like the DNA problem in the first page of the book of Mormon it si written that "All" Native Americans are Lamanits what makes the problem with the DNA so big is that 99.9% of the probes of 175 different Tribes of Native American show that ther are asian not jewish.

 

I em since nearly a year inactive, i em 24 years old and i just want to start a new life based on truth not on fictional ideas what turnd out to be a fraud.

 

In my time in the church i lost nearly all my friends from outside they belived i was in a cult...

 

However you turn the Page you cant say the Book of Abraham is True, however you twist you mind you cant ignore that DNA is a technology that cant be ignored... however you say toward youself the chruch is truth you shoulden forget about the history. if you take the story away you take the faith away and during the history there are big questions that the church is not willing to answer.

 

I'm going to be brutally honest. Did you join the church because you believed it, or did you join for the girl? Don't answer the question, just think about it honestly. I don't want to know your answer. But if such a small thing as a few DNA tests can make you quit a religion, then you must not have had a strong testimony in the first place. I've never seen the study, but have heard much about it. We don't know if the Lamanites, who were originally from Israel, had Asian blood in them. We again don't know if or how much they intermixed with groups from Asia. We do know that all the Native Americans left has at least some Lamanite blood, making it safe to say they are all 'Lamanites'. To go beyond this you go beyond my limited understanding of American history, migrations to it, and migrations from Asian peoples into the Israel region.

 

But, I know that many people rely on their faith to get them through the day. Because of that I try not to say anything negative about other people's faiths and/or beliefs.

 

A noble outlook. I too try and do this, but like you I'm sure I've said something offensive along the way.

[DarthTofu]

Dang these are long posts... And I became an "Honest Atheist" only after a great deal of time and being an "Angry Atheist" for about two years Though you should talk to this kid at my school who believes in, and I quote, "The Pastaferian" who is said to creat people from rocks with his noodly ap[pendages and then turn said people into pirates. He claims that it can all be scientifically provern, which we've all pointed out means that it really can't be interpretted as religion, then.

 

May main beef with major religions is that they try to manipulate people so that they profit or have greater power in some way. Not all religions, mind you, and certainly not as many today as there once were, but still some. Take the Catholic Church- in midevil times they were complete and total, how do I put this without offending anyone? Umm, crap, so this is what its like to be Mitth...

 

Anyway, they had a habit of excommunicating anyone who took some of their power away, taxing the people, and saying "Give us money or thou wilst not enter the divine kingdom of Heaven!" and such... So that's my issue. And no, I haven't been following the truely huge posts, here. Sorry.

[Master_Xan]

So what you're saying is... if I put up really, really big posts, then everyone will assume I'm smart without ever actually reading them? hmm... this merits additional thought...

 

There have been a few religions that didn't set themselves up at some point or another for personal gain. I've heard nothing to suggest such activity in Buddhism, for instance, nor is there such activity in the LDS church. I will assume there are others as well, particularly the smaller ones. But the sad fact is that most of the time, give men authority and they will abuse it eventually. Its evident in all areas of life, religion, politics, military, ect.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

May main beef with...

I will assume you meant "My...".

Take the Catholic Church- in midevil times they were complete and total, how do I put this without offending anyone? Umm, crap, so this is what its like to be Mitth...

To be honest Tofu I don't often think/feel like that, just every once in a while...

 

So what you're saying is... if I put up really, really big posts, then everyone will assume I'm smart without ever actually reading them? hmm... this merits additional thought...

No, Xan. I'm still reading everything. Long posts don't impress me. It's what's IN the post that sometimes impresses me.

[Guest Scathane]

...one problem what we have in europe is that we dont have much resources of the Church History.

Come again?!

 

...99.9% of the probes of 175 different Tribes of Native American show that ther are asian not jewish.

You're kidding me?! Really?!

 

I em since nearly a year inactive, i em 24 years old and i just want to start a new life based on truth not on fictional ideas what turnd out to be a fraud.

Try science...

 

you cant ignore that DNA is a technology that cant be ignored...

I love this one! you can't ignore something you can't ignore?

 

...however you say toward youself the chruch is truth you shoulden forget about the history. if you take the story away you take the faith away and during the history there are big questions that the church is not willing to answer.

Bingo dude! Right on the mark... But tell me, religion is not necessarily equivalent to the Church, is it?

 

I undoubtably don't share some of your own spiritual beliefs, but I sure as hell respect your right to have any. I also respect your liberal-minded thinking when approaching the always tricky subject of spirituality.

I concur...

 

We do know that all the Native Americans left has at least some Lamanite blood, making it safe to say they are all 'Lamanites'...

Right... And you have seen this study?

 

Though you should talk to this kid at my school who believes in, and I quote, "The Pastaferian" who is said to creat people from rocks with his noodly ap[pendages and then turn said people into pirates. He claims that it can all be scientifically provern, which we've all pointed out means that it really can't be interpretted as religion, then.

You're talking about the Pastafarian... The kid at your school fails to see that the Flying Spaghetti Monster was actually thought up in defense of science...

 

May main beef with major religions is that they try to manipulate people so that they profit or have greater power in some way.

My main beef with religions is that they claim to speak the one and only truth...

[Omotesenke]

Hey, Elder Online-Missionary,

Didn't know they are sending you on a virtual mission as well.

So take care you don't get on one of the many bad bad anti-lds sites,

cause you will lose your temple recommend if read about the spirit of critique.

 

The problem about your religion is that it is solely based on your feelings.

When the missionaries try to convince you about their Mormon faith,

they push you to pray about the Book of Mormon and about Joseph Smith.

Then they explain that if you have positive feelings or the infamous

"Burning in the bosom", a warm feeling in your breast, that this is the Holy Spirit.

 

This might be suitable for the romance period, where everyone was looking within.

 

However, times have changed. The scientific progress within the last centuries make it impossible to neglect outer truths and realities.

 

So, stop praying until you feel good, open your eyes and face reality.

And the reality is:

There is absolutely no evidence for the historicity of the book of Mormon, not a single one. No city was found, no coin, no archaeological finding at all. The "reformed egyptian" is unknown to scholars, the Grammar Joseph Smith wrote for reformed egyptian is only taken into account by linguists if they need something for the joke page of their journal.

Moreover, Joseph Smith failed on every occasion to prove that he is indeed a prophet. When someone stole parts of his manuscripts, a real prophet would have rewritten them word by word (Jer 36,32), but Smith just wrote a similar story "from another point of view" to hide the fact that he couldn't reproduce it, as he had made it all up.

 

Similarly, he translated the so-called Kinderhook plates, some "ancient plates" which later turned out to be cheap forgeries, anyway, he could reproduce ancient texts from forged nonsense scriblings.

 

That's what I don't like about religion.

They close their eyes towards reality, that is, the outside world, and only take their inside, their wishes, their feelings, their emotions into account.

This might be suitable for a romance person, it is not suitable in today's science oriented society.

 

I have also studied many religions and read a few of their scriptures.

Currently, I am studying the Omotesenke tea ceremony, which contains elements of Zen buddhism. It is so peaceful and void of hatered most christian confessions direct towards non-conformative people

(unbelievers, believers of other religions or denominations, gays, blacks, etc. pp.).

 

Ok, just my two cents on your

attempt to do an online-mission.

 

I just want to mention that it is optimal to gather as much

information as possible, therefore browsing the internet is indeed

a good thing to do inspite of "Elder John"'s advice to stay away from

it and only talk to "people who know about the LDS church", that is,

missionaries trained to manipulate the feelings and free will of people who are unsure about direction in life.

 

Greetings,

The omotesenke-Zen-Novice

[Zarkonacas]

 

First of all i want to point out that Science is from God, even Newton, Einstein and a lot of others have believed in God and that was what pushed them to do research. Most LDS-Scolards have wanted to convince the people how true ther religion is, in the end of their studys they regonice that they where wrong. Most of them Left after ther results the Chruch. Members of Lds use the Word "Anti-Mormon" for everything that comes along againt ther Church it is a adoption of "Anti-Christ" and a wordplay... i never heart of any Anti-Catholic or Anti-Lutherian or Anti-Pentacostel no Church on earth use this therm. The Reason why the Mormons use the Therme is simple they wont to point out that people how talk againt the church are not simply disfelllows they want to point out that they are inspired by satan and i child of them, so they are Anti-Christain. This is the Reason why most members think that if someone fall away the "Dark-Side" has consumed him has converted him into evil, but its not true. Its just a apology for the members so that they can judge him/her. A Big problem in every lds-ward are rumors they spread out like illnes and they are mostly ussed to bring people down. I was allways wondering why they talk so much bad thinks about people until i regoniced its a kind of a defence shield if they can blame someone else why he is againt the chruch they can argument that they are way to holy even to spent time with that "fallen" person how only destination is Hell for eternaty.

 

When i found the Truth about Joseph Smith and the Church out i felt betrayed even twisted. Should i contine a way of eternal Lies or should i face the Truth and move on like a men, what would be better for me? Finelly i did Nr.2

 

If you look just on the evidence of the "Lost Book of Abraham" or in english i think it is named "The pearl of great Price" what is actual Scripturs of the LDS and you just look an the painting and then go to a egyptian meuseum where mumies are and scrolls you see the same pointins even in the Pyramids. I have not wanted to accept it first i thought hey we dont know how they translated it or? But if Egyptologist translate something and it is wrong they risk not just to lose they job they risk to blame therself for the rest of ther life and they risk they finacial existence. I think these People have no reason to lie or? If Joseph really had the ability to translate then why coulden do the profets in 1967 the same when the scrolls rediscovert? The answer is easy and hard to take... even with DNA as a Mission Ward Leader i was telling Investigators that "ALL" Native American are in Real Jews how just imigrated to Usa becouse god told them so and on the first page of the Book of Mormon it is written so. You can trace back with DNA real easy any Culture until their Orgins. If the Book of Mormon would be true then the Question would be why have god Changed the DNA of Native Americans into Asian instead of Jewish? The Answer is simple but hurts in the beginnig...

 

I had more then just one Girl in the Lds church, i even had 4 Girls how where telling me that they had by "inspiration" the felling that i should becoume ther future Husband becouse i em so wonderfull and spiritueal and other things... I just had the Felling on one girl and this one i meet nearly a year ofter i becoume a member she was a student from texas and i liked her mind very well she was intelligent and a beaty this one i had wanted to marry at any price... i was two years together with her until she finished her music studys in Munich then she needed to go back to usa. Its easy to climp up in the ward by obiedice and just doing what the bishop wants from you. Its easy to impress most people their becouse many struggle or are twisted between the world and the church. Many just play a Lifestyle image like in most other religion they are few how mean it honest and want to do it with full heart.

 

Many members i meat had issues and problems in mental kind. I always where wondering why, until i see what is behind mormonison. Its is good if you take it just as a lifestyle but if you try to live it like the truth you reach i point where you start questioning everything.

 

In my Calling as a Mission-Ward-Leader i meet a few how i thougth what for damm "Anti-Mormon" i defended the church whereever i could and tryd to explain that by the fruits they shall know and by the gift of the spirit. Until i regoniced that not i em in the truth becouse it is based on a big lie. And how hard i ever would try there is no chance to defend a lie or even to make it more truth then it was... you cant make out of a lie truth that is imposible.

 

"When i look back it just sees that all the smilieling faces tryd to promise you the Sun, but they really put you into hell"

 

I dont say you should left the LDS chruch but i cant stand if someone is saying that ther have the only truth on earth and all others are wrong... becouse it is a Double-Lie, i cant lie to myself and i fell ashamed that i ever was so active and so deep into it. i fell like i em a Liar how try to convince people to join the chruch so that they can take about 10% of their gross income. In my time in the calling i convinced 9 people to join the church, i was so happy becouse i thought they found the truth... but now i fell like i pushed them into an intolerated system where it is hard to come out. I is like a cult as longer you worship as harder is it to come out.

 

I dont say leave the chuch but if you think by "passive" mission work you can find new Members you should think first what is you chruch kind of? Is it good? Most thinks sounds good until you see what is behind it, yeah the Satan tell 99 Truth just to hind one little lie behind it. After i left the Church i had get a much stronger testemony of christ and of his teachings and what is more important i try to life on it as hard i can. I first was Catholic but i never removed my membership there... then i became LDS but i still haven removed my membership there too... but i left it by my mind and i dont want to be part of ti again.

 

Are you from Utah? I em from Germany the City is Called Rosenheim near of Munich. My parents are from Croatia my dad got a Construction company here. Have you been on mission or do you planning to go?

[Guest Scathane]

So, if I understand you correctly:

 

1. you were a Roman Catholic
   
2. you then became a Mormon, although remained a member of the Catholic Church
   
3. you had 4 girls who felt divinely inspired to marry you...
   
4. divinely can in this sense be defined as your being so wonderful and spiritual and other things...
   
5. but you were in love with yet another girl because she was intelligent and beautiful and you wanted to marry her at any price
   
6. you had a relationship with her for two years before she went back to the US...
   
7. which means that at any price didn't comprise the option of you following her...
   
8. you concluded the Mormon Church is one big lie
   
9. you left the Mormon Church but never cancelled your membership
   
10. you now get a stronger testimony of Christ
    
11. you live in Rosenheim near Munich because your dad runs a construction company there

 

How old are you if I may ask...

[Guest Scathane]

I'm not usually one to double post but this time, I'll make an exception:

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Omotesenke

Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 2:19 PM

To: scathane@swrebellion.com

Subject: Hardly funny

 

 

Hello Scathane,

 

The following is an email sent to you by Omotesenke via your account on Star Wars: Rebellion [sWR]. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address:

 

donotreply@swrebellion.com

 

Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Omotesenke.

 

Message sent to you follows

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Your comment is hardly funny.

It wasn't meant to be...

 

Because your church must be true...

Where did you get the idea that there is such a thing as my church? Where did you see me claim universal truth?

 

...anyone who leaves can be mocked and ridiculed, is that what you think?

No, that's not what I think at all and if you had spent a little more time on these forums you might have noticed that...

 

Do apostate not have human rights, is that what you think?

Again, if you think that, you obviously don't know me...

 

Oh, you are so unchristian...

And what if I was?

 

A few final remarks about your email, Omotesenke... Here at SWR we debate on things out in the open, not through email. If you have something to say to me, say it out in the forums so that every community member can see what it is you have to say...

 

Furthermore, you jump to conclusions when it comes to what kind of person I am... I don't take that lightly, especially not when you put me in categories I don't fall into....

[Defender_16]

I get the feeling that he joined the SWR Forums just to make his singular 1 post "Contribution."

The fact that he has to follow that up with an e-mail is not the best sign.

 

 

Anyways...

 

I've just started books in the Forgotten Realms series and I came across something that really seemed to stand out. (I already posted it in the Creation/Evolution thread but figured I might as well re-post it since it was kind of off topic for that thread.) An interesting viewpoint.

 

From Forgotten Realms: Sojourn

Montolio stoppped to consider Drizzt. He heard a shuffle at the mention of his goddess, and he took it to be an uncomfortable movement. Wanting to explore his revelation, Montolio reached insdie his chain mail and tunic and produced a pendant shaped like a unicorn's head.

"Is it not beautiful?" he pointedly asked.

Drizzt hesitated. The unicorn was perfectly crafted and marvelous in design, but the connotation of such a pendant did not sit easily with the drow. Back in Menzoberranzan Drizzt had witnessed the folly of following the commmands of deities, and he liked not at all what he had seen.

"Who is your god, drow?" Montolio asked. In all the weeks he and Drizzt had been togother, they had not really discussed religion.

"I have no god," Drizzt answered bodly, "and neither do I want one."

It was Montolio's turn to pause.

Drizzt rose and walked off a few paces.

"My people follow Lloth," he began. "She, if not the cause, is surely the continuation of their wickedness, as this Gruumsh is to the orcs, and as other gods are to other peoples. To follow a god is folly. I shall follow my heart instead."

Montolio's quiet chuckle stole the power from Drizzt's proclamation. "You have a god, Drizzt Do'Urden," he said.

"My god is my heart," Drizzt declared, turning back to him.

"As is mine."

"You named your god as Mielikki," Drizzt protested.

"And you have not found a name for your god yet," Montolio shot back. "That does not mean that you have no god. Your god is your heart, and what does your heart tell you?"

"You do not understand, Drizzt Do'Urden. You grew up among the pervsion of a deity."

"And yours is the true one?" Drizzt asked sarcastically.

"They are all true, and they are all one I fear," Montolio replied. Drizzt had to agree with Montolio's earlier observation: He did not understand.

"You view the gods as entites without," Montolio tried to explain. "You see them as physical beings trying to control our actions for their own ends, and thus you, in your stubborn independence, reject them. The gods are within, I say, whether one has named his own or not. You have followed Mielikki all your life, Drizzt. You merely never had a name to put on your heart."

[DarthTofu]

*Wham!* *WHAM!* *WAHM!* I'm sorry, that's the sound of me pounding my head against the wall- in the words of I-don't-know-who: Can't we all just get along? Everyone is arguing over who is right, what is wrong with whos religion, etc. We're all apparently missing the fact that nobody can prove anything- and BTW, Scath, that was a bit harsh in your post- not making any judgements about you, merely what you wrote- people have to have been around for a bit before you can openly BEAK/moch us But seriously, its pointless to get into a "I'm right, you're wrong!" "Am not!" "Are too!" style argument... Its just childish bickering!

[HerrGeneral]

Why all the long posts? If you have something to say, just say it. Don't keep beating around the bush. Get to the point.

 

My main reason for not being religious is because they all (I think?) tell you what you should and shouldn’t do. Humans reach an age when they know the difference between right and wrong i.e Thou Shall Not kill, Thou shall not steal ect I know this already. It's called having 'Morals'.

 

My other big issue I have is: Why so many? Surely if there was a god(s) why do we have so many? How can we discard some i.e Ancient Egyptian Gods, yet not others? I believe life is too short to do and obey what is said in some ancient text.