Why an empire?

[AdmiralToguroAni]

This thought occurred to me. The Emperor was around 50-60 years old. I'm going to say 55 in Phantom Menace and 65-70 (forgot how long the Ep.2-3 gap was) in Episode II when he becomes the emperor. Even if I'm off by 10 years, it doesnt really matter. My question is, why would Palpatine want to build an empire? Here are my thoughts:

 

He's so smart that he's able to orchestrate the war, and hold an Empire for 20 years. The whole thing seems to well planned for the purpose of sitting on a throne saying "Overlord! Overlord! OVERLORD!!!!" He had to have had a reason to do it.

 

He uses his apprentices, teaching them only what they need to serve him, then discarding them. This seems to say that he doesn't want to strengthen the Sith, but that he uses his Sith powers and apprentices as a means to some other end.

 

Does he believe that the universe would benefit under one ruler with almighty power? That under an empire, the universe would be more secure, and overall, a better place? Perhaps, but we don't get the impression that he's trying to make the galaxy a better place from his time in the senate.

 

Is he xenophobic and the Empire is a means to quash/suppress alien races? Again, possibly. However, most of the mention of the Empire's xenophobia stems from the Expanded Universe, likely drawing from the fact that all of the Imperial Officers were white male humans. However, The Prequel trilogy refutes this by having Palpy have an alien apprentice and his senate aids were all alien.

 

In the expanded universe, we discover Palpatine has clones all over the place. By using the EU we can conclude that he intended to rule forever. In the movies alone, however, its pretty obvious that Palpy doesnt have long to live in ROTJ. His second in command is his apprentice, and I doubt Vader could be a bureacrat. So, why do you think he started the empire?

[Guest Scathane]

i dont think he planned on dieing.

No, he probably didn't plan on it but I think one doesn't do Palpatine credit to say that he didn't consider the possibility...

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Hm...I'm not too big on my EU, I think "Planet of Twilight" turned me off to it and I barely know what a Yuuzhan Vong is, but I DID read Dark Empire I and II. So lets sum this up:

 

1) Palpy is a genius

2) Palpy is evil and started the empire to rule the world for eternity because of his Sith ideals, not for anything like the good of the galaxy.

3)He had clone bodies and kept his apprentice on a leash because he wanted to be the evil Overlord for all eternity.

 

Okay. I buy all of that. Now comes the hard part: Why keep Vader around after taking over?

 

In Palpy's plan, Vader never becomes the master. Vader is gimpy once he's in the suit when compared to his power before. Having force users isnt a concern thanks to Lady Lumina and Mara Jade and all of his Sith Adepts on Byss. So, why keep Vader around? The most obvious answer is that Vader is a symbol terror and shows the "New Age" of the Empire. I don't buy that. ANYONE can be a symbol of terror: Osama Bin Laden brings fear into people's hearts, and he's a 70 something year old man! Truth by told, Palpy wouldn't even need a human as a symbol of terror since he had the Death Star. What then, was the real reason he kept Vader around?

[Darth_Rob]

I don't agree entirely with your views on Darth Vader ATA. I don't believe he became any less powerful after being put in the suit. The problem is that we only know Darth Vader in the suit from Episodes IV-VI. These films were made in the late 70s-early 80s. They didn't have the technology to portray these epic lightsaber duels between Luke and Vader, like they have today in Episodes I-III, where the duelists are all hopping around like a mexican jumping bean. Darth Vader was a force to be reckoned with, and I'm sure that he could have owned Mara Jade if they were ever made to face eachother in combat. Palpy kept Vader around because:

1. he WAS a face of terror to the galaxy. He inspired Imperial officers to work harder through fear.

2. he was a useful Dark Jedi. He was just as important as Mara Jade and the other Force users Palpy kept around. It's just that they each had their uses. Jade was an unknown face, even to the rest of the Empire. She was useful for covert missions, where she had to sneak in and out undetected. That was her strength. Vader couldn't do that. He did not have the ability to sneak around. He was useful as a leader, where everyone could see him and fear him. Vader was a most powerful Jedi.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Even though the movies were made in the '70s, you still have to take them for what they were. I dont think you can use their age as an excuse to make up the battles in your minds. It even makes sense from the movie's perspective, too. Yoda used the Force in his lightsaber style (Ataru?) and that style is forgiving of his age. Obi-Wan's defensive form of saber combat and Anakin's offensive form rely on physical stamina in addition to skill, and so its only natural that they'd slow with age (and robotic limbs). Luke, at the same time, never received full training and thus wasnt as strong as the other Jedi of earlier despite his high midichlorian count. I think he ends up getting better in the EU, but from the comics and books I've read, his saber skills are always pretty sub-par (almost losing to a lava worm), and he relies on the Force (bringing down an AT-AT with the Force) instead.

 

As for Vader being a visible symbol of the Dark Side, i just find it hard to believe because there are other methods of keeping the troops in line that don't involve having a Dark Jedi who's almost as strong as you. If Palpatine was the only Sith, he'd have nothing to worry about. To be honest, I don't think Palpy REALLY cared about the rule of two.

[Guest Scathane]

Why keep Vader around after taking over?

I agree with Darth Rob, although I don't think the 70s/80s movies' duels being lame... Your question, ToguroAni, was why keep him around after taking over? My answer would be why not? I think there are a lot of arguments as well as motives for this decision... To name a few that have crossed my mind at some time or another:

 

1. I think we can safely assume that Palpatine at least aimed at immortality... In not dying, he 'knew' he could control Vader forever. Think about it: Palps is the type of guy who thinks he can rule the entire galaxy forever... Surely a force like Vader - powerful though it may be - is no match for someone who controls the galaxy... It may be a misguided notion, but not an unlikely one... Moreover, it completely serves the Achillesque element that often accompanies supervillains...

 

2. I think that we can safely state that Vader is one of the most powerful forces in the Star Wars universe. Why not use it to your advantage? Again, for someone who was under the impression that he was immortal (especially in the cloning sense), it would be just plain stupid to not use such a powerful tool.

 

3. 568*$8^$654%486^77 OR it might just be that Palpatine was so absorbed by the dark side that through sith knowledge (the people) and sith tradition (the order), he could not distance himself from it. It was the very force that kept him alive, so in abandoning sith tradition, he would have forfeited his immortality (or maybe rather his drive for immortality)... And, according to sith tradition, you train a pupil in the full awareness that s/he will betray and kill you as soon as the pupil gets the chance... Because, ultimately, this is how sith tradition survived... ^%$658468^667.........---------/

***booting......
 
Systems check:
_Processors... _ok
_RAM check... _ok
_Checking hard disks... _ok
_Motivator... _ok
_Tools and appendages... _ok
 
***identyfying droid......
 
_Manufacturer: Industrial Automation
_Type: astromech
_Series: W1-Series
_Model: K Model Grand Vizier Deluxe Edition
_Identification: W1-K1
_Owner: unknown
 
*** loading operating system......
 
Scathware OS x.y
 
*** loading plugins......
 
_Navigational software... _ok
_Dorksoft Sideware v3.0... _ok
_Useless Statistics Professional v2.1... _ok
_B.E.A.K. v4.4.31... _ok
_MarkHutting Suite 2006... _ok
 
 
Welcome Scathane!

Oops! Glitch in my circuits, I guess...

Edited September 21, 2006 by Scathane

[DarthTofu]

*Looks at Scath as if he has gone crazy* I personally think that killin Vader would be A) bad for morale, B) a terrible waste of power, and C) Almost impossible for Ancient Palpy. Vader has the ability to absorbe outside energy, hense force lightning makes him stronger, and Palpy just isn't as fast in a saber duel as he used to be.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I'll buy Scath's first two arguments. But I dont think Vader absorbs outside energy. Palpy's force lightning was what killed him, after all.

[DarthTofu]

I'll buy Scath's first two arguments. But I dont think Vader absorbs outside energy. Palpy's force lightning was what killed him, after all.

 

No, Palpy's force lightning short-circuited him. Did you ever read "I, jedi" by Mike Stackpole? Good book, I recomend it. Luke tells Corran that the two of them (Them being Corran and Vader) shared the ability to absorb energy from nature. Corran absorb's Kyp's force shock wave and Vader absorbes Han's blaster bolts in ESB.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Are you SURE Vader "absorbed" the blaster bolts? I have a feeling that he simply blocked them, having a metal hand and all. Remember that his shoulder pad took a lightsaber blow and barely got scratched. Having a blaster bolt strike his hand wouldn't be a problem--especially considering that since most of the Jedi are dead, Vader's real opposition would be people with blasters. It would make sense for him to have blaster proof armor. Further, we clearly see Vader's skeleton in ROTJ as he's being electrocuted. If he was only being short circuited, you wouldnt have seen his skeleton.

 

I have never read I, Jedi. However that book presents it, though, the movies give no hint of Vader absorbing energy, and in fact show quite the opposite.

[Darth_Rob]

I think Yoda absorbed energy in the form of Dooku's force-lightning in AotC...

[DarthTofu]

He speaks the truth, amigo. As for Vader's blaster proof armor- why the hell don't they give the stormtroopers this stuff if they have the technology?!?!? If its rare then that makes sense, but if its just expensive, well, who cares? This is the Galactic Empire- you do not screw with the Galactic Empire or else you get your head handed to you ala mode on a silver platter and your property stripped of useful items then burned!

[Guest Scathane]

I must admit that there seems to be some dichotomy in the movies and I, Jedi... But then again, maybe absorbing such a big amount of energy (it was Palps, after all...) caused Vader's skeleton to show...

[R2-Opus2]

I agree with the assessment that Palpy didn't care much for the Sith rule of having only two. I think that, with all his adepts and the like, even Vader, the trick to his rule is never to have taught them everything he knows, or it will be his end.

 

Palpy managed to come back in a clone body cause he was a very knowledgable Sith, and a crafty somebitch, but that goes with the territory

 

So he could have Vader and his adepts around for all the reasons sited (rule by fear, ya need icons to project power and keep it, minor league crafty somebitches in the adepts), but for obvious reasons kept the best secrets to himself to stay on top. He learned his lesson well when he'd killed his master after learning everything he needed to know after all, so there was no way he was going to let his lesser Sith pals to one up him.

[Guest Scathane]

Quite a likely theory, I must admit...

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I'm not so sure Yoda "absorbed" the Dooku's lightning (or Palpy's, for that matter) as he "blocked" it. Even if he DID absorb it though, it had that little glow around it, while Vader did not. As for why Vader had blaster proof armor and the stormies didn't, it probably IS because the armor costs too much. The Empire is cheap when it comes to manpower. They don't put shields on TIEs because it would cost too much, instead relying on sheer numbers to overwhelm opponents. This logic carries over into the Stormtroopers as well. The armor is more for show, I think. If Ewoks throwing rocks can get through it, then its pretty worthless for anything else.

[DarthTex]

Although I'm sure Darth Vader had some fine armor , he used the Force to "contain?" Han's shot on Bespin (I'm not sure "contain" is the right word, but not "absorb" in the typical sense). I'd have to re-watch ESB to know absolutely for sure, but I'm pretty confident he used the Force so the Han's shot "burned itself out" (like shooting a ferrocrete wall) and not "absorb" like you would think a sponge would.

 

In "I, Jedi" Corran Horn had the same ability as his father (a Jedi) in that they could use the Force to "dissipate" energy. Not all Jedi could do this. Corran (and his father) were reportedly terrible at levitation. I guess good at some things, bad at others.

[DarthTofu]

... And Anakin, in being the 'one who would bring balance to the force' is ridiculously gifted in it and can absorbe energy and the like. Note that in episode three Obi is sweating his face off where Anakin isn't really sweating at all- why? Because Anakin can absorbe the heat from the fire... Okay, actually I don't know that for sure, but still... Maybe I'm just too much of a Stackpole fan, but I like my idea that Vader just absorbed it. Where the Empire was stingy I can't help but think the Republic would have spent more dough to protect people, IE Jedi, from getting shot with a blaster... Then again, won't Mandalorian armor stop a blaster shot? Research may be required... Edited January 30, 2006 by DarthTofu

[DarthTex]

DarthTofu wrote:

 

... And Anakin, in being the 'one who would bring balance to the force' is ridiculously gifted in it and can absorbe energy and the like. Note that in episode three Obi is sweating his face off where Anakin isn't really sweating at all- why? ...

 

Maybe because Ewan McGregor is a better actor

 

 

...Where the Empire was stingry I can't help but think the Republic would have spent more dough to protect people, IE Jedi, from getting shot with a blaster...

 

(I have to get this off my chest first) The word is "stingy" not "stingry"

 

(** OK, back to the post at hand **) Yeah, you'd think the Republic (or the Jedi Council for that matter) would put a crowbar in their wallet and buy some decent protective armor for the Knights, Padawans and Masters "out in the field". If that many Jedi were being killed in the war, you'd think they would start trying to protect the remaining ones a little bit better. Order 66 might not have been AS devastating if the Jedi had some additional protection. A lot more of them might have probably escaped the initial attack at least (that's not to say Vader wouldn't have hunted them down anyway, in the long run).

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Mando won't stop a blaster bolt according to the EU books I've read, but neither Fett was shot in the movies, so we can't say for certain. I think it'll save you if it just barely hits you or whatever, but you can't take a blaster in the chest just because you have Mando. The book might have been a "Tales" book, but it went something like this:

 

Boba Fett and Han Solo were staring each other down, and Han said something like "even your Mandalorian armor won't stop a shot at this distance (which is ridiculous because if it doesn't stop a shot at 3 feet, its not going to stop a shot at 30 meters)." So they called it a draw and walked away.

 

By the way, has anyone noticed that the movies don't imply that the X-wings are any stronger than TIE fighters? One hit still kills them.

[shasla5]

This may be a bit off topic. but:

 

You have to remember that the Empire was stretched EXTREMELY thin trying to hold onto the entire republic. That's millions and millions of star systems. The Old Republic was, of course, fragile and weak, and the Empire had to build up enough forces QUICKLY to take control. They also had the indebted and weakened economy and industry of their predeccessors to work with. The Rebels, on the other hand, were liable to strike anywhere at anytime, so the Empire had to be everywhere at once just in case, whereas the rebels could simply concentrate what little they had in a few places.

 

The Empire didn't neglect to put shields on their standard fighters because they don't care about their pilots: the most cold hearted man knows that that is a very stupid attitude to take. Training a pilot to be proficient with a fundamentally inferior fighter takes a lot of effort, and they could not possibly have intended to waste it for no good reason. We do know that Tie Fighters have superb maneuverability, which makes up for their lack of protection considerably. And a hyperdrive is just a waste of space on anything so small, as they need to be supplied and fueled anyway.

 

Remember, don't knock speed over protection. In the opening days of WWII, Japanese zeros made piecemeal out of American fighters, because they sacrificed armor plating and self sealing fuel tanks for performance. The Empire simply overextended itself, imo.

[Guest Scathane]

The Empire simply overextended itself, imo.

Considering the outcome of the Battle of Endor, I think that can be agreed on...

[TullMa]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but during RoS when Palpy is

explaining a few things to Anakin, he talks of the Sith. He explains about

the great Sith who could avoid death itself, etc etc until he was killed by

his apprentice (Palpy I'm guessing?).

He also talks of how he could bring life into existence. Maybe Palpy is

responsible for Anakins "virgin" conception through dark Sith powers? And

therefore he keeps him around as he is effectively his son.

 

It was always about the Skywalker family.

[DarthTofu]

Maybe Palpy is

responsible for Anakins "virgin" conception through dark Sith powers? And

therefore he keeps him around as he is effectively his son.

 

It was always about the Skywalker family.

 

OH NOOOOOOOOOS!!!1

 

It's the "Is Palpatine Anakin's father?" thread all over again! Been discussed... a whole lot... Still, at least now we know we aren't the only ones to come up with such a theory... http://www.swrebellion.com/forums/postt646.html Here is the original topic...

[Guest Scathane]

Indeed... and, personally, I still feel I have the right to completely disregard elements like Shmi's immaculate conception...

[HerrGeneral]

Have yet to read all 4 pages but will do after my two pennies worth. Enthusiastic nOOb here.

 

EU can be great but it's not full prove. Meaning unless it's mentioned in the films theories on the Empire can only be speculated. Although we get the picture that they can be ruthless if needs be.

 

Is the Empire/Palps anti-alien? No. Maul for a start, the CIS, his political aides, bounty hunters, spies ect ect This proves that the empire couldn’t a be strictly human sect.

 

As regards about the Jedi and controlling the galaxy: think of it like this, the Jedi are the far left while the sith are the far right. The Jedi don't wish to control the galaxy, mealy keep the peace within it. The sith also want peace but it differs to the ideas of the Jedi. They believe only one or two should be in charge as it cuts out debates and disagreements with others. Similar to a King or be it an Emperor. The sith believe that only strictness will keep the galaxy in line, while the Jedi believe in a much more open minded view democratic way.

 

Palps uses those to carry out what he feels must be done. The individual doesn't exist. Only the state/empire.

 

If he was to teach others of his ways then they would become a threat to him. He has to make himself out to be the single most inportant person (the only?) who can control the galaxy. This is why no one is second in line to him.