Beeing Promoted in the Forums

[Mad78]

I thought that too but i just followed SOCL's questions.

[Guest Scathane]

Advice: never, and I mean never follow SOCL's questions!

[Mad78]

***Mad picks up his notebook***

...do never follow SOCL's questions.

noted.

[SOCL]

Being a civilian and Jedi is a contradiction? How's that? Luke Skywalker resigned his military commission to become a Jedi (after the movies).... I mean, yes, you have the Jedi as officers in the Clone Wars, but wouldn't that be an exception due to the time of crisis?

[Colonel_Olorin]

BTW, Mad, the concept of being both civilian and jedi contradict each other...

 

was obi a civilian when luke found him? same for yoda

[SOCL]

BTW, Mad, the concept of being both civilian and jedi contradict each other...

 

was obi a civilian when luke found him? same for yoda

Weren't they? I mean, sure, Leia called Ben "General Kenobi", but that doesn't mean he was still an active-duty military officer. I mean, we call retired generals and admirals "General" or "Admiral".

[Colonel_Olorin]

i should proof read my posts sorry i meant to say wasn't not was

[SOCL]

i should proof read my posts sorry i meant to say wasn't not was

I condemn you to be BEAKed!!!

[Guest Scathane]

I didn't mean that not being a civilian meant you'd have to be in the army. Since Jedi are an order, I would say they're not really civilians...

[SOCL]

I didn't mean that not being a civilian meant you'd have to be in the army. Since Jedi are an order, I would say they're not really civilians...

I suppose you're right. But I'm part of Order of the Arrow (some Boy Scout secret association I used to pay lip-service, but now could care less), does this mean I'm not a civilian? Or what about Zen monks? They are part of a spiritual order, so does that make them not-civilians? I mean, I always viewed the Jedi as a spiritual order that happens to teach some fighting (in other words, the Force is primary, the lightsaber is secondary).

[Trejiuvanat]

The problem with your reasoning SOCL is that you are talking about modern things, Star Wars is essentially medieval. If you think about the Jedi you have to think of a cross between Samurai and Templar (Or any other Knight Order of the Middle Ages). AS for the force first, lightsaber second, take the Templars they were also a spiritual order but had also an active 'military' participation during the Crusades. Think of the Lightsaber not as a weapon but rather as a symbol declaring the user to be a Jedi.

 

Nor Samurai nor Templar were seen as civilians, nor seen as members of the nobility. They had a special place in that era's hierarchy. So were the Jedi, their status as Force-users already marked a line between them and the rest of the galaxy, they have no participation in politics (other than being called to mediate (sometimes)) and they weren't involved with the military until the Clone Wars. (And even then, they were Jedi first, Generals and Commander second.)

 

As for Leia referring to Obi-Wan as General Kenobi, it may have been as simple as her 'father' having told her about a General Kenobi from the Clone Wars and never having mentioned that Kenobi was a Jedi.

[SOCL]

The problem with your reasoning SOCL is that you are talking about modern things, Star Wars is essentially medieval. If you think about the Jedi you have to think of a cross between Samurai and Templar (Or any other Knight Order of the Middle Ages). AS for the force first, lightsaber second, take the Templars they were also a spiritual order but had also an active 'military' participation during the Crusades. Think of the Lightsaber not as a weapon but rather as a symbol declaring the user to be a Jedi.

 

Nor Samurai nor Templar were seen as civilians, nor seen as members of the nobility. They had a special place in that era's hierarchy. So were the Jedi, their status as Force-users already marked a line between them and the rest of the galaxy, they have no participation in politics (other than being called to mediate (sometimes)) and they weren't involved with the military until the Clone Wars. (And even then, they were Jedi first, Generals and Commander second.)

I suppose this makes more sense, and true, I was thinking in modern terms (when I shouldn't have). I suppose the title "Jedi Knight" should be all the proof I needed. I guess I was assuming that non-civilian meant military, but this is not true. I stand corrected.

 

As for Leia referring to Obi-Wan as General Kenobi, it may have been as simple as her 'father' having told her about a General Kenobi from the Clone Wars and never having mentioned that Kenobi was a Jedi.

Oh yeah, I in no way thought that had anything to do with Kenobi being a civilian. Just as we call retired generals and admiral today by their rank, I'm sure people would still call Ben by his rank (as a way of honoring his deeds and persona).

[Trejiuvanat]

Just as we call retired generals and admiral today by their rank, I'm sure people would still call Ben by his rank (as a way of honoring his deeds and persona).

 

I wonder if we would have preferred to be addressed as a General or as a Master...

[SOCL]

Just as we call retired generals and admiral today by their rank, I'm sure people would still call Ben by his rank (as a way of honoring his deeds and persona).

 

I wonder if we would have preferred to be addressed as a General or as a Master...

Ben Kenobi seemed pretty peaceful for the most part, so I doubt he would want to be known as 'General Kenobi' all the time unless it were people simply calling him by that title for honorary reasons and in no way calling him general do to being a subordinate. Additionally, the character of Ben* seemed like someone who would prefer to be called by his first name or nickname than by "master".

 

 

 

 

*Notice my usage of the name 'Ben'. I did so to make a comparison/contrast between the Kenobi of the Classic Trilogy--wise, aged man--and the character of the prequels--brash, confident conformist. I believe Anakin's change to Vader affected Kenobi so much that the names 'Obi-Wan' and 'Ben' express not only a change in basic identity and lifestyle, but a complete turn-around on how to look at life. Ben Kenobi strikes me as the type who wouldn't be angry about being called General Kenobi at public/official functions, but would prefer to be called "Ben" in private. Compare that to the cocky youngester from TPM who seems afraid to question the Council and the young, sometimes tactless (i.e. scowling Anakin in front of Padme) master in AOTC who seems to be weary of not going against the will of authority. It's not a far stretch to say that Obi-Wan would have enjoyed being called General and/or Master, whereas Ben wouldn't have minded, but would have prefered something a little less formal.

[Trejiuvanat]

 

I agree with your point, it's essentially what I myself thought, but this brings up another topic one which I think I've said before (or was it at the Costa Rica SW site?). Anyways, I've said that after the duel both Anakin and Obi-Wan are dead. One has become Darth Vader, denying the existence of the good man Anakin Skywalker once was, and the other had to renounce to his identity and his status and become an hermit. Ben had to kill Jedi Obi-Wan and become an eccentric old man.

[Guest Scathane]

I guess you're right, Trej. However, I still feel that the character of Obi-Wan isn't dished out properly in the prequels... But then again, neither was Qui-Gon nor was Darth Maul...

[SOCL]

I guess you're right, Trej. However, I still feel that the character of Obi-Wan isn't dished out properly in the prequels...

I agree on the point of Obi-Wan, he wasn't quite how I or much anyone else had imagined him...I think most expected an older, wiser Obi-Wan than the one presented in the prequels, but at the same time I rather like Obi-Wan in the prequels because of the character changes from Obi-Wan to Ben; it makes for a very complex and human persona.

 

But then again, neither was Qui-Gon nor was Darth Maul...

How's this? Aren't Maul and Qui-Gon purely prequel characters? I ask because it seems as though they were meant to have been portrayed differently...yet, if they were made for the prequels, then isn't that how they're supposed to be? I'm just a little confused by your statement, I'm not questioning your reasoning.

[Guest Scathane]

What I meant was that they lack depth...

[Mad78]

Very interessting debat. Keep it up.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I see where you're comming from Scath. We get a small impression of who Qui-Gon is as a person, but we really don't know much more than that. It's as though he was thrown in there simply to justify Obi-Wan's being an apprentice. I would have liked to "get to know" him a little better, have him be more than a shell, a more rounded character as they say in litterary circles.

 

On Maul I can understand why little was said of him. There is a belief that the less you know of or show of an opponent, the more menacing and dangerous they seem. I think this worked well with Maul. I also had the impression that, like Qui-Gon, Maul was only there to justify something. Without Maul there wouldn't have been any Jedi-like opponents to fight (Having Sidious would have ruined the plot for AotC and RotS to some degree), which was needed to portray the mirroring of the loss of a teacher for a padawan (Obi looses Qui-Gon, Luke looses Obi). I did, however, want to know just how deadly Maul was. We really didn't get to see him at his best, I believe.

[SOCL]

Isn't ROTS supposed to address some of these issues? For instance, if I have it understood (and please, if you've read the novelization, simply confirm or deny, don't put any spoilers), the movie is supposed to explain why Qui-Gon did not disappear like Ben and Yoda, as well as go a little deeper into Qui-Gon's reasonings and so forth. Also, I also had it understood Maul was supposed to make some sort of appearance (by this I mean in memories and words, not in person...err...being).

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Many have speculated that Palpy was Sipho Dias (or whatever), but perhaps we will discover that Qui-Gon was .

[Mad78]

To know more about Maul would be nice.

I remember there was a book who had him as main character even if i can't remember the title.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I believe it was called Shadow Hunter. There was also a book entitled Cloak of Deception, though I have no idea wheather it involved Maul or not.

[Mad78]

I have to get my hands on a copy of that book.