Those damned Corellian Corvettes

[Texas_Fett]

ARISE FROM THE DEAD, OH TEN-MONTHS-SINCE-THE-LAST-POST THREAD!

 

That reminds me...

 

Supposedly, the SW material (either canon or EU, can't remember which) says that Ackbar was responsible for the design of the B-Wing, which provides Rebellion with the reasoning for allowing him to research starships, right?

 

Well, the same material credits Dodonna with designing the A-Wing... but he has no research abilities, let alone starship. And since Wedge and Dodonna are 2 of your starting characters, wouldn't it make sense to let both of them start in on starship design right off the bat?

 

Okay, my comment on this may not have been worth resurrecting this thread, but what the heck.

 

I've never understood why Wedge's postion as leader of Rogue Squadron makes him a candidate for Ship Design Research. Remember, Rebellion/Supremacy takes place immediately after the events of ANH, and according to canon, that makes Wedge a 19(?) year old pilot who survived the attack on the Death Star. I hardly think that qualifies him to start designing the latest and greatest Rebel Capital Ship and Starfighter Technology. No, I used RebEd long ago to remove Wedge's Ship Research and made Dodonna capable, using the A-Wing reasoning. Imperial players may not like the idea of Wedge being freed up for Espionage/Sabotage/Command duties, but they should smile at knowing that the Rebel player now has another tough choice for a diplomacy/research character (a la Talon Kaarde, Lando, et al): use Dodonna for diplomacy missions in the Rim/Core, or tie him up for most of the game researching new ship types?

 

Another thing I've never understood is why Rebel Troop types take so long to research. What's so darn complicated about giving some Sullustans, Mon Calamari, and Wookies weapons? Like that takes a genius to figure out. I also didn't quite understand having Riekaan capable of Troop Training, so I gave that R&D capability to Page (I can hear the Imperial players cheering already).

 

Anyway, it would be interesting to see how people have used RebEd to both change the game to meet their preferences yet maintain game balance.

[teukros]

Heee. I like giving the Empire things to cheer about. In my game, I have eliminated Neb-Bs (Empire: Yaaay!!!) and Escort Carriers from both sides, and changed the research level for X-Wings to 2 and CC-7700s to 11 (the Alliance only used gravity well projectors recovered from captured Interdictor Cruisers IIRC), among many other changes. The Carrack's turbolaser ratings were doubled (to 10/10/30/30, oooohh) and the Strike Cruiser's costs were lowered to 50 material and 40 maintanence. I lowered the construction cost of Imperial Army Regiments from 6 to 5 and of T.I.E.s from 3 to 1 (their maintenance costs 2). I bumped up the maintenance for A-Wings to 5. I also have Coruscant start with 6 Stormtrooper regiments, 15 Imperial Army Regiments, 12 T.I.E. squadrons, and minimums of 1 construction yard, 1 training facility, 3 mines, 3 refineries, 3 Gencore-1s, two LNR-1s, and 2 KDY-150s.... where the Alliance starts with a Fleet Regiment at Yavin and another Fleet Regiment at the HQ along with 2 Y-Wing squadrons and 1 Construction yard, 1 Gencore-1 and 1 KDY-150.

 

On the other hand, Y-Wings cost 4 and 3, respectively, Jerjerrod's diplomatic base was lowered to 40 and Piett's base was lowered to 0, and the construction and maintenance costs of troop units were increased as follows: Sullustans, Stormtroopers, Mon Cals and Wardroids construction costs doubled, Darktroopers and Wookies construction costs quadrupled, and Mon Cals, Wardroids, Darktroopers and Wookies maintenance costs doubled. I also have the Imps get the T.I.E. Defender at the very end of the game (research level 11) and I make it less powerful than the B-Wing and slightly less manueverable than the A-Wing.

Edited August 23, 2003 by teukros

[Texas_Fett]

Interesting...I thought you were out to screw the Rebels until I saw that last paragraph. Well...I still think you're being a bit harsh on the Rebels, but whatever floats your boat. I'll list some of the changes I've made, although I'm afraid I can't be as detailed as I'm at work and I'm working from memory.

 

I eliminated the Alliance Dreadnaught and Escort Carrier, while making the Imperial versions available to both sides (I'll have to check to see what I replaced the Alliance versions with). Nebulon-B's are available to both sides, and the Empire gets access to the SSD at research level 5. The CC-9600 frigate became the MC-40 Gunship (at a reduced materals/maintenence cost, but also with reduced stats), the Mon Cal the MC-80, and the Dauntless the MC-90. The Imperial Assault Transport became the Lambda Shuttle (I can hear the groans already) and the Star Galleon is now a Sentinal Landing Craft (still more groans, but at least they're both available from the start). Bulk Transports are now Bantha Assault Transports (capacity: 1 troop regiment; available to both sides). I similarly altered the Strike Cruiser, although I hadn't considered the change you made to the CC-7700.

 

As for characters, I replaced a lot of the lesser-known characters with those from the EU (I'll have to compile a list of who became who). The one notable difference is that I added a few Diplomacy capable characters to the Empire, and each side now has one additional Ship Design Research character (but I switched up who could do it a bit).

 

There's more, but that's all I've got for now.

[teukros]

Show me your cards! Maybe we should both upload our mods to the appropriate section (the TC page?), I'd like to examine yours... (but I'm definitely going to make the Antilles/Dodonna change you mentioned above, I'll have to think about Rieekan and Page though... why Page?)

 

My basic strategy was to force the Imperial player to rely more on military assaults and less on diplomacy. However the T.I.E. is nearly useless and reducing the MAT of the Imp. Army troops from 6 to 5 is not that significant. Doubling the MAT of the Stormtroopers hurts but these guys are elite! They shouldn't be used for planetary garrisons! Quadrupling the MAT of the Darktroopers will probably hurt the Imps a lot more. So from my changes the Imps do have a lot to complain about... did I mention that I increased the MAT and MNT of the T.I.E. Defender to 15 and 21?

 

I agree that, "historically", the Neb-B and Escort Carrier should be available to the Imps (but not to the Rebs). But in the game the Neb-B is a munchkin ship. Why would the Imps ever build anything else? I want to see the Imperial player building SDs! Which is the main reason I eliminated the Escort Carrier, to force the Imps to build SDs. But maybe that is not a sufficient reason and I should rethink eliminating the Escort Carrier. Of course the Imperial is basically a glorified supercarrier crossbred with an overbuilt Victory, with delusions of grandeur. The ship is 1.6 kilometers long!!! It can't be cost effective but that's Palpatine for you isn't it? Expensive as hell but impressive as hell too (especially when it is rising over the horizon and driving straight at you). IMO it's just not Star Wars if the Empire's ships don't have that, uh, imperial grandiosity.

[teukros]

I should mention that the AI always seems bound and determined to fully garrison all of its planets with the most advanced (and expensive) troop units available, regardless of anything. So if you've raised the maintenance and/or construction cost of the troop units, it will make the poor AI even more handicapped than it already is...

[Texas_Fett]

Show me your cards! Maybe we should both upload our mods to the appropriate section (the TC page?), I'd like to examine yours... (but I'm definitely going to make the Antilles/Dodonna change you mentioned above, I'll have to think about Rieekan and Page though... why Page?)

Took me long enough to get back to you, didn't it? I went out of town for the weekend and came back to the 'issues' with the site update.

 

Okay, Page. My reasoning for Page is that he defected to the Alliance with Crix Madine. Both were intimately involved in the training of Imperial Special Forces, so I figured Page would be a good choice to have Troop Design rather than Rieekan (who was really just a good general at Hoth and didn't show any aptitude in the Troop Design arena). I know the reasoning is tenuous at best, but that's my take on it.

 

My basic strategy was to force the Imperial player to rely more on military assaults and less on diplomacy. However the T.I.E. is nearly useless and reducing the MAT of the Imp. Army troops from 6 to 5 is not that significant. Doubling the MAT of the Stormtroopers hurts but these guys are elite! They shouldn't be used for planetary garrisons! Quadrupling the MAT of the Darktroopers will probably hurt the Imps a lot more. So from my changes the Imps do have a lot to complain about... did I mention that I increased the MAT and MNT of the T.I.E. Defender to 15 and 21?

 

I agree that, "historically", the Neb-B and Escort Carrier should be available to the Imps (but not to the Rebs). But in the game the Neb-B is a munchkin ship. Why would the Imps ever build anything else? I want to see the Imperial player building SDs! Which is the main reason I eliminated the Escort Carrier, to force the Imps to build SDs. But maybe that is not a sufficient reason and I should rethink eliminating the Escort Carrier. Of course the Imperial is basically a glorified supercarrier crossbred with an overbuilt Victory, with delusions of grandeur. The ship is 1.6 kilometers long!!! It can't be cost effective but that's Palpatine for you isn't it? Expensive as hell but impressive as hell too (especially when it is rising over the horizon and driving straight at you). IMO it's just not Star Wars if the Empire's ships don't have that, uh, imperial grandiosity.

Okay, I can see your reasoning. I kept the Imperial Escort carrier rather than the Alliance version simply because I'd never seen the Alliance EC anywhere else. I dreaded engaging the Imperial version in XW:Alliance, and I figured the Rebels would either use/steal the same design or build their own, so I made it available to both sides. The costs are right about the same, so there's little difference there.

 

I'm working on getting my custom cards together to upload to the site, and I'll post the who became what afterwards. I just applied the Cardspace patch Monday night, so I'm going through and correcting and adding to entries. I'm also making my first attempt at using ResHack, so there's quite a learning curve right now. Couple that with husband/father duties and it greatly increases the lead time to completing everything! I'm hoping to have something in a week or two to upload. I just hope they're up to everyone's standards; I'm working with MS Photo Editor, MS Paint, and Irfanview, so things aren't exactly Photoshop quality. I've gotta go pixel by pixel on the edits, too...

[teukros]

I'm looking forward to checking out your TC. Me, I've got to register for classes at CUNY next week. Or is that QueueNY?

 

Rather than give it to Page, I eliminated the Troop Training Research ability from Rieekan (and Covell to balance things out). Makes Troop Training Research nice and slow... just like I want it.

 

If I do upload my TC I'll just leave the cards untouched, anybody will be able to replace the Escort Carriers on both sides and the Reb Neb-B cards with anything they want.

 

OTOH I'm encountering a weird bug. It seems that the Mon Cal Cruiser is hardwired to come in at Tech 2? If I set the Mon Cal to Tech 1 and the X-Wing to Tech 2, they both come in at Tech 2. I tried to set the Neb-B to tech zero (regardless that I made the card unbuildable) but it didn't make any difference. I wonder if I should find an MC-80 card and put that in the default Mon Cal card's place...

[Texas_Fett]

I'm looking forward to checking out your TC. Me, I've got to register for classes at CUNY next week. Or is that QueueNY?

Ah, the mandatory frustrations of college registration. Aren't the lines part of the "Freshman Weed-out" program?

 

Which degree are you working on? Bachelors? Masters?

Rather than give it to Page, I eliminated the Troop Training Research ability from Rieekan (and Covell to balance things out). Makes Troop Training Research nice and slow... just like I want it.

Well...that works too. I'd never thought of reducing the number of characters that could do research...that would sure put a premium on the few characters that could.

 

What gets me is the amount of cards in the database in which everyone has some level of design ability. Doesn't that kinda miss the point?

If I do upload my TC I'll just leave the cards untouched, anybody will be able to replace the Escort Carriers on both sides and the Reb Neb-B cards with anything they want.

 

OTOH I'm encountering a weird bug. It seems that the Mon Cal Cruiser is hardwired to come in at Tech 2? If I set the Mon Cal to Tech 1 and the X-Wing to Tech 2, they both come in at Tech 2. I tried to set the Neb-B to tech zero (regardless that I made the card unbuildable) but it didn't make any difference. I wonder if I should find an MC-80 card and put that in the default Mon Cal card's place...

That IS weird. I've toyed around with research levels on ships and haven't noticed anything like that, but then again I wasn't paying THAT close of attention. I'll have to try it myself...

[teukros]

Took me long enough to get back to you, didn't it? I went out of town for the weekend and came back to the 'issues' with the site update.

 

I had the blackout last week and my Internet service was just restored late last night, just before I had to leave for work. How's that for an excuse for taking so long to follow up?

 

I've been thinking about my modifications and I'm going to make the Escort Carriers buildable to both sides again, and I'm going to make the X-Wing Starfighter's and Mon Calamari Cruiser's Research Levels 1 and 2 respectively. The way I have it now, the early game is just too predictable for the Alliance player, who is forced to build the same things over and over again. Y-Wings and Corellian Corvettes. Y-Wings and Corellian Corvettes. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

 

Though it was the Emperor who was nauseated when he had his task force of 3 VSDs, 3 ISDs, a Carrack and a Lancer return to a system which I had just liberated (before I had a chance to build shield generators) only to find it defended by 113 squadrons of Y-Wing Starfighters. Very amusing, the sight of a half dozen Star Destroyers running from Y-Wings!

 

 

In reply to your question, I already have a B.A. (in Geography and Urban Planning ), I used to work as a computer tech, but now I am heading into Nursing School.

[Texas_Fett]

I had the blackout last week and my Internet service was just restored late last night, just before I had to leave for work. How's that for an excuse for taking so long to follow up? [/i]

Yeah, I figured that was the reason for your absence the last week. BTW, I'm having trouble connecting to the site from home (damned dial-up ) and I can't upload anything from here at work (damned firewall...), so it may be awhile before I get anything posted. However, I have a TON of cards to upload, including a bunch of "just for the heck of it" indulgences. I've also been keeping track of my changes in a .txt file, which I'll copy @ paste into a new topic after I upload everything.

 

I've been thinking about my modifications and I'm going to make the Escort Carriers buildable to both sides again, and I'm going to make the X-Wing Starfighter's and Mon Calamari Cruiser's Research Levels 1 and 2 respectively. The way I have it now, the early game is just too predictable for the Alliance player, who is forced to build the same things over and over again. Y-Wings and Corellian Corvettes. Y-Wings and Corellian Corvettes. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

Remind me: what was your reasoning for delaying the X-Wing until research level 1? They had them at Yavin, after all, and I would think that with the limited number of shipyards available to the Rebels in the early game that they'd be very limited in their production to the aforementioned Y-Wings and Corellian Corvettes without the option of X-Wings. And without escort carriers that'd mean their only other options would be Bulk Cruisers, Bulk Transports, Medium Transports and Dreadnaughts? Man, that'd pretty much solve that whole "should I stay or should I go" dilemma for Dodonna, wouldn't it?

 

And speaking of escort carriers, it turns out that the AI won't give you any Escort carriers initially using my method (eliminating the alliance version and making the Imperial version available to both sides). I've started a half-dozen games just to test my theory, and even on the easy level of difficulty there are no escort carriers for the Rebels. Combined with a few of the system changes I've toyed with and it sure bumps up the difficulty early on!

Though it was the Emperor who was nauseated when he had his task force of 3 VSDs, 3 ISDs, a Carrack and a Lancer return to a system which I had just liberated (before I had a chance to build shield generators) only to find it defended by 113 squadrons of Y-Wing Starfighters. Very amusing, the sight of a half dozen Star Destroyers running from Y-Wings!

What's even funnier is seeing the same fleet running from 20 mixed X-Wing and Y-Wing squadrons. 'Course, those same squadrons WILL take that fleet to school, so I guess I can't blame 'em.

In reply to your question, I already have a B.A. (in Geography and Urban Planning ), I used to work as a computer tech, but now I am heading into Nursing School.

Too freaky! A fellow map-head! I just got my degree in Geography and Urban Planning this last December from U of Texas @ San Antonio! I'm a GIS Quality Assuarance/Digital Editor for a company here in SA now. You're not inspiring a lot of confidence in the degree by then going off to nursing school, ya know...

[teukros]

Remind me: what was your reasoning for delaying the X-Wing until research level 1? They had them at Yavin, after all,

 

They had a very limited number of X-Wings, - all but two of which were destroyed IIRC - which would have been state-of-the-art at that time (Cf. the intro to the original "X-Wing" game). How long had the Y-Wing been in large scale production? 5 to 10 years? Before that, the Z-95 Headhunter was cutting edge... the original T.I.E. fighter was revolutionary when it was introduced (put an overpowered Solar Ionization Reactor in between two cheap-ass engines and a couple of laser cannons, put a chair with a rudimentary flight control and targeting computer on top, and surround the (unpressurized!) pilot with enough armor plate so he doesn't fry in a tenth of a second... riiiiiiiiight); with a skilled Imperial pilot, nothing could dance with the T.I.E. until the Y-Wing came along. So my reasoning is that immediately post-Yavin the X-Wing is not really out of the prototype stage and the problems associated with large scale production haven't been solved yet... also, I want to see the Alliance player building some Y-Wings before the X-Wing becomes available for manufacture.

 

and I would think that with the limited number of shipyards available to the Rebels in the early game that they'd be very limited in their production to the aforementioned Y-Wings and Corellian Corvettes without the option of X-Wings. And without escort carriers that'd mean their only other options would be Bulk Cruisers, Bulk Transports, Medium Transports and Dreadnaughts? Man, that'd pretty much solve that whole "should I stay or should I go" dilemma for Dodonna, wouldn't it?

 

Yeah, well in the early game the Rebels would spend a lot of time running. That's the way it should be IMO. But the inability (in the game) of Rebel starfighters to Hit and Fade unless they're hauled into an Imperial System in the belly of an Escort Carrier will force me to make those ugly things available for manufacture again.

 

The Corellian Corvette is wonderfully suited to Hit and Fade missions itself btw - and with its speed, maneuverablilty, anti-starfighter defenses and, last but not least, its planetary bombardment, it never becomes obsolete.

 

Wow, talk about going full circle.

Edited August 26, 2003 by teukros

[Texas_Fett]

Okay, I can see all that. I guess I'm one of those few who actually strives for balance in my starfighter forces by initially building them in a 3:2 ratio (X-Wing:Y-Wings). Heck, I'm still building Y-Wings in the end-phases of the game, since it allows me to strike capital ships with a bomber while the B-Wings draw away pressure and the X-Wings & A-Wings take care of the fighter screens.

 

One question: I can accept the whole "X-Wing prototypes were all at Yavin" deal and how you translated it into Rebellion, but is that canon? I mean, is that from an actual source or is that an assumption? Otherwise it sounds good.

[teukros]

95% assumption. My source is the aforementioned X-Wing game intro.

[Texas_Fett]

95% assumption. My source is the aforementioned X-Wing game intro.

Ah...kinda like my whole "Page" thing, eh? I'll have to give your 'delayed' X-Wing a try. If nothing else, it'll allow me to test your Mon Calamari cruiser bug.

[Sith_Lord]

I have ccreated an interesting Corvette card with Rebed it is only fun on the hard settings though (very expensive but almost indestructable...)

[Texas_Fett]

I have ccreated an interesting Corvette card with Rebed it is only fun on the hard settings though (very expensive but almost indestructable...)

ANOTHER Dutchman?!? That ROCKS!! One day we shall rule the world (again)!

 

I tend to steer away from overpowered Corvettes. The one change I made was to give them Turbolasers, like they're actually credited with having. Nothing too heavy, since I don't want it to overtake the Carrack, so it has a Forward: 10 Port: 5 Starboard: 5 Aft: 5 rating. But at least then there's SOME justification for having a bombardment rating of 1.

Edited August 25, 2003 by Texas_Fett

[teukros]

I guess I'm one of those few who actually strives for balance in my starfighter forces by initially building them in a 3:2 ratio (X-Wing:Y-Wings). Heck, I'm still building Y-Wings in the end-phases of the game, since it allows me to strike capital ships with a bomber while the B-Wings draw away pressure and the X-Wings & A-Wings take care of the fighter screens.

 

The Y-Wing is a very underrated fighter-bomber. Its maneuverability is just one less than the X-Wing's (4 instead of 5) and it packs a considerable punch. It can't dance with the T.I.E. Interceptor (maneuverability EIGHT) but then again, that's not what it was designed for.

[Sith_Lord]

The Y-Wing is a very underrated fighter-bomber. Its maneuverability is just one less than the X-Wing's (4 instead of 5) and it packs a considerable punch. It can't dance with the T.I.E. Interceptor (maneuverability EIGHT) but then again, that's not what it was designed for.

 

You are right they might move like a sleepy Hutt but theye have been the backbone of the Alliance for years I just bought an Y-wing toy from 1977 (it costded me dearly but it's worth it) and I am damn happy with it

[Texas_Fett]

The one thing I was never happy with regarding the Y-Wing is the fact that so much is made of it's thicker armor (well, thicker than the X-Wing and A-Wing, at least) yet that isn't reflected in Rebellion. Squadron size equates to hull strength, but I can't just add more fighters to the squadron. So, I did the next best thing and bumped their shield strength up a little (to six or seven, I think). I'm in the process of testing 'em out, though, so don't hold me to that change just yet.

[Sith_Lord]

I have ccreated an interesting Corvette card with Rebed it is only fun on the hard settings though (very expensive but almost indestructable...)

ANOTHER Dutchman?!? That ROCKS!! One day we shall rule the world (again)!

 

you are dutch too? Or some of your relatives are?

 

BTW my corvette has intensified firepower and shield and Gravity wells

 

(the turbolaser wich is almost the same as the DS takes 10 mins to reload but is a one shot kill.

[Texas_Fett]

Yeah, I'm about as pure-bred a Dutchman as you can find over here. My great-grandfather came over here just before World War I. He hailed from Gronigen, and we got a change to visit some distant relatives up there when my father was stationed in Germany with the US Air Force. Turns out I'm distantly related to Rintje Ritsma, a.k.a. "The Flying Dutchman", whom Scathane (yet another Dutchman!) informs me is more-or-less a national hero over there.

 

Gravity wells on a Corvette?!? And with a one-shot, one-kill turbolaser? Yeah, that's overkill alright...

[Sith_Lord]

Yeah, I'm about as pure-bred a Dutchman as you can find over here. My great-grandfather came over here just before World War I. He hailed from Gronigen, and we got a change to visit some distant relatives up there when my father was stationed in Germany with the US Air Force. Turns out I'm distantly related to Rintje Ritsma, a.k.a. "The Flying Dutchman", whom Scathane (yet another Dutchman!) informs me is more-or-less a national hero over there.

 

Gravity wells on a Corvette?!? And with a one-shot, one-kill turbolaser? Yeah, that's overkill alright...

 

You are related to Rintje Ritsma (He is a famous ice skater, but he broke his ankle while wakeboarding) wow cool. And yes he is somekind of national hero (he is taking it easy right now)

 

one-shot one-kill is overkill isn't it? well I just change the recharge rat to 15 mins (but they are more expensive than A DS though

[teukros]

The one thing I was never happy with regarding the Y-Wing is the fact that so much is made of it's thicker armor (well, thicker than the X-Wing and A-Wing, at least) yet that isn't reflected in Rebellion. Squadron size equates to hull strength, but I can't just add more fighters to the squadron. So, I did the next best thing and bumped their shield strength up a little (to six or seven, I think). I'm in the process of testing 'em out, though, so don't hold me to that change just yet.

 

I tried something similar with the B-Wing by bumping its shields all the way up to 15 but it didn't seem to make a damn bit of difference, the T-I squadrons still swatted them like flies. Maneuverability seems to be everything in this game as far as fighters are concerned...

[Texas_Fett]

You are related to Rintje Ritsma (He is a famous ice skater, but he broke his ankle while wakeboarding) wow cool. And yes he is somekind of national hero (he is taking it easy right now)

Distantly related. I can't stress that enough. I sure ticked off some of my friends when I rooted for him at Lillehammer rather than the American contingent. They kind of understood when I explained that he was family.

one-shot one-kill is overkill isn't it? well I just change the recharge rat to 15 mins (but they are more expensive than A DS though

Um, how'd you go about doing that? I thought the weapon recharge rate was faster the higher the value, and it isn't measured in minutes.

[Texas_Fett]

I tried something similar with the B-Wing by bumping its shields all the way up to 15 but it didn't seem to make a damn bit of difference, the T-I squadrons still swatted them like flies. Maneuverability seems to be everything in this game as far as fighters are concerned...

Hmm...is there a noticeable difference if the shield value is dropped to zero, then? If not, then it might be better to just tinker with the maneuverability of each squadron, then. There has to be SOME value for shields, though. Y-Wings seem to last a lot longer than TIE Bombers...