TIE Fighter.

[BadSamaritan]

Wow, lots of good arguements all around. Im impressed. But now for me to add my two cents.

 

When it comes to clones, I seem to fall with the whole "cost effective vs. overall effectiveness" arguement. Raising an army of clones would be horribly expensive. But there would be enough patriotic people throughout the galaxy that would be dying to join the mighty empires military forces. And the empire wouldnt have to pay a single decicred to raise them to the proper age. So it would just plain be cheaper to use regular people rather than clones.

 

Sadly, the same could be said of TIE/In vs. X-wing debate. While both sides had very different tactics for their fighters, The empire had to rule over the galaxy with an iron fist, while the rebels simply had to free worlds. To hold on the the galaxy, the empire would have to produce an enourmous amount of starfighters. Now, would you rather spend the money on high quality equipment, and not have the numbers to hold everyone in line, or do everything on the cheap and use fear along with numbers to force the peace?

 

But I saw so,eone mention the Empire at its peak vs. the Vong. I would have to say the Empire would win, but the cost would be horribly high. But I think Grand Admiral Thrawn would have taken the Vong and made them dance to his tune over and over again at his leisure. Add in a Death Star or two and the Vong would never have had a chance.

[Jahled]

Sadly, the same could be said of TIE/In vs. X-wing debate. While both sides had very different tactics for their fighters, The empire had to rule over the galaxy with an iron fist, while the rebels simply had to free worlds. To hold on the the galaxy, the empire would have to produce an enourmous amount of starfighters. Now, would you rather spend the money on high quality equipment, and not have the numbers to hold everyone in line, or do everything on the cheap and use fear along with numbers to force the peace?

 

It's exactly this line of argument which I have just woken upto.... it would also explain why the New Republic would have been so fragile in the aftermath of the Battle of Endor; assuming the mainstay of their fighters were little changed from the rebellion days...allowing for the countless books and stories about the New Republic's fledging efforts at survival.

 

However, I don't like this debating on whether the EU is correct or not, because as someone stated earlier, without the EU we would have very little. Imagine a Star Wars with no books, games, comics, merchandise, but only movies. You would have no answers to any questions that weren't specifically answered in dialogue during the movies. Because of this, you have to take liberties, and that has become the EU, which in part is our only source for all the little things that truly flesh out that galaxy far, far away

 

Cool, I can live with that, sort of; but am reluctant to take huge chunks of what has transpired in the EU seriously, and wonder where you draw the line. Whenever I have suggested trying to debate this or that without using anything in the EU as referance it is to try and get some sound arguments, this way or that, without constant referances to the EU, which generally brake debate down into contradiction and meaningless, and generally leaving everyone more confused than before it started....

 

I have never said the EU isn't/or is correct dude, just that lots of it is daft.

[Skynxnex]

Well the original Kamino clones yes those are not very cost effective. However, they did serve their purpose which was to be completely loyal to the 'Republic' even so far as taking orders without question, hence Order 66. In that perspective the clones were needed since ordinary recruits would have hesitated or balked at the idea of killing their Jedi commanders.

 

Supposedly over time not just Kamino produced clones but other worlds as well obviously. The spaarti method is probably used which reduces growing the clones to mere months if not only 1 year. The advantage to using the clones is more than just say cost effectiveness but loyalty. The clones will be obey any and all orders they get. Recruits, not quite the same. Thrawn's method is infinitely better since he was able to grow clones in weeks...imagine churning out pilots and soldiers in a matter of weeks with full training and knowledge of tactics. If that were the case then clones would be superior since it takes a while to train recruits. Also, with the clones one can use certain traits which are suitable for the environment and genetically engineer them specifically for their role. For instance the clones in the Clone Wars there are pilot clones and soldiers etc. The pilot clones are in general shorter than their soldier peers and possess faster reflexes which makes sense. The soldiers on the other hand tend to be slightly bigger and have less independent thinking. Also, in terms of cost now manufacturers can standardize the gear that is produced. From an economic standpoint that is fantastic because now you dont have to produce several different versions of one item due to physical variation.

 

I think some people quickly dismiss the advantage of clones when it comes to cost effectiveness and forget about other economic factors.

[Darth_Rob]

What I say to all this Lucas VS EU is this:

 

Star Wars was created by George Lucas. He had this vision for an amazing story of a fallen father whose son helps to redeem him for the "next life". Lucas created great characters, great ships, in short, a great universe. I love the OT, and even though I have some qualms about Episodes 1 & 2, I love them as well. Lucas is a genious.

 

However, you cannot attack the EU, saying it contradicts Lucas's films. As far as I'm aware, Lucas signs off on the EU stuff. I remember when I was playing the Star Wars CCG, all the cards created for the game had to be approved by Lucas. The game took nameless characters who were present in the movie for one second, and gave them a name, and a history. I'm sure that you all remember the "Hammerhead: from ANH? Well, I believe that Decipher (Star Wars CCG creator) took him, named him Momaw Nadon, and gave a brief history on him. Later, he appeared in one of Kevin J. Anderson's short stories as Momaw Nadon. And later, as new action figues were released from the OT, the name went from Hammerhead to Momaw Nadon.

 

My point is that Lucas allows the EU to exist. He cannot possibly keep expanding a universe that has such a huge fan base. That's why many other writers delve into the EU via books, games, etc. You cannot dismiss anything from EU, claiming that it contradicts Lucas' movies. Lucas was the one who allowed the EU in the first place, and for good reason. I just feel that Lucas and his people should have researched a little more, to make sure the prequels did not contradict the EU. Because even though Lucas is the sole creator of the Star Wars universe, he allows the EU to continue and thrive, and since the EU was created before the prequels, he should have made sure that his new films did not contradict the EU. I'm simply saying that to throw out anything the EU creates just because it contradicts Lucas' films is ludacris.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Just to inject a little thought on the Empire's xenophobia: take a look at those Palpatine hangs around with during RotS. I don't think you'll find any humans in there.

 

While it is true that we don't see any alien officers, there may have been some somewhere. Or, maybe any aliens that liked what the Empire was doing were in more administrative positions.

[Skynxnex]

Just to inject a little thought on the Empire's xenophobia: take a look at those Palpatine hangs around with during RotS. I don't think you'll find any humans in there.

 

While it is true that we don't see any alien officers, there may have been some somewhere. Or, maybe any aliens that liked what the Empire was doing were in more administrative positions.

 

Very true. It could also be Imperial policy since human clones were in such widespread use that they didnt want aliens who required different environments to serve on the ships since that wouldnt be very economically feasible.

[Darth_Rob]

My thought is that those alien advisors were simply being used by Palpatine. He was able to move up through the Republic's political system by using any support he could muster. But once the Emperor consolidated his Empire, he might have gotten rid of all the aliens whom he may have deemed inferior.

[Mad78]

All Palpy did was play the game until he was able to tatally take power and control the hole political system. Then he could do what he wanted.

[Skynxnex]

Actually someone was telling me that in some of the prequel novels General Grievous is responsible for orbital bombardment of several planets. Apparently most of the Separatists are aliens and since Grievous destroyed many planets this is a possible way for Palpatine to later on spread anti-alien propoganda as a way to unify the various human factions. One needs to remember that in the Star Wars galaxy setting that humans are the most numerous species and the most dominant as well.

[Guest JediIgor]

By the way I read the Essential Guide to Episode 3, and it said that clones age twice as fast as regular humans plus most of them die in the Clone Wars.. which essentially means that by A New Hope the majority of the Imperial Army would be non-cloned .

 

Also consider that being a stormtrooper is probably more risky than being a TIE Fighter pilot (you get some lameass armor that won't even protect you if you get shot by a AT-ST dead on.. maybe you get lucky and a blaster shot grazes you, but like the TIE Fighter no shields!).

[Mad78]

Well i guess that in any case the it would be rather risky to be in the imperial army.

[Prine]

I agree that most of the EU is utter rubbish from a storyteller's perspective. Then again I think a lot of the plot points in episodes 1, 2 and 3 are stupid too. Prequels are generally bad in that respect. If you must reconcile the clone situation, it's easiest to argue that the point of the clones was to have a ready army at the Republic's disposal rather than having to draft from the populace, which would have made the idea of a Republic army more palatable to the senate. Droids could've been used, but then there would've just been droids all over the place, and I guess Lucas had to somehow tie up that "clone wars" loose end from ANH besides. After the Seperatists were beaten and the usefulness of a Republic's army proven, the clones weren't needed as much and fewer people would've protested the idea of recruitment.

 

I don't think the Empire were xenophobic either, I just think the core worlds which comprised the bulk of the Empire's popular support were mostly human-inhabited, and thus that's where most of their recruits came from.

 

I don't think it's difficult to reconcile the starfighter thing. The Empire didn't need hyperdrives or life support on their starfighters; they had countless thousands of capital ships and freighters, and they basically owned the galaxy. TIE fighters never needed to go off on solo missions because they weren't designed for that. They were short-range fighters and there was always a ready transport for them to attach to. On the other hand, the Alliance fleet was spread thin all throughout the galaxy and they had relatively few capital ships. They were a guerilla force, so they needed a modicum of mobility and self-sufficiency for every craft at their disposal. The question of shields is harder though, it does seem kind of silly for the Empire to rely on unshielded fighters.

[Battlefield51]

Jahled, your research that led to your equally surprising/incredible theory is remarkably accurate. Many of the ignorant individuals on the forum which I currently use the most (http://www.lucasarts.com) believe that the TIE fighter is technologically and physically a failure of a vehicle. Without a doubt, the grand majority of thier arrogance is drawn directly from the EU lies that you have exposed with your brilliant first post. In order to stake these lies and prove these individuals wrong, I wish to copy your post onto the forums of lucasarts for all to view and thus respect. Your evidence clearly states that they have all been misguided (though I, for one, Never underestimated the TIE fighter genious for a moment), and your outstanding stormtrooper cloning evidence as well. You would of course receive full credit for my announcement: All I want is to demonstrate the Lies of EU which led to the misguided thoughts of the clearly non-perceptive views of the people. Will you allow me to post this announcement?

[Jahled]

Jahled, your research that led to your equally surprising/incredible theory is remarkably accurate. Many of the ignorant individuals on the forum which I currently use the most (http://www.lucasarts.com) believe that the TIE fighter is technologically and physically a failure of a vehicle. Without a doubt, the grand majority of thier arrogance is drawn directly from the EU lies that you have exposed with your brilliant first post. In order to stake these lies and prove these individuals wrong, I wish to copy your post onto the forums of lucasarts for all to view and thus respect. Your evidence clearly states that they have all been misguided (though I, for one, Never underestimated the TIE fighter genious for a moment), and your outstanding stormtrooper cloning evidence as well. You would of course receive full credit for my announcement: All I want is to demonstrate the Lies of EU which led to the misguided thoughts of the clearly non-perceptive views of the people. Will you allow me to post this announcement?

 

 

Umm..err.. ok...

 

*dust's jacket, straightens tie*

 

Credit swrebellion whilst your at it...

 

*prepares speech*

[Walther911]

Personally, I will defend the humble TIE fighter and to some extent the extended universe (although some bits suck, especially this new rubbish which I haven't read...):

 

1. The TIE fighter is actually far more efficient and cheap than the Rebel fighters, not to mention more effective with equal standard fighters. Th reason for my claim is that firstly it does not have to use fuel etc due to its solar panels (though I guess it has an alternative power source because there are contradictions in the EU as to what happens in deep space!) which means that it sacrifices shields for speed. So what - if you can out-manuoevre someone it makes no difference how much you can take.

 

This is particurlaly true in the X-WIng games - when flying even the basic TIE you can do better than the X-Wing and in fact they generally match a TIE interceptor to an A-Wing in terms of effectiveness. The TIE's disadvantage comes in attacking capital ships, not superiority. And of course, in terms of strategy, a TIE fighter's lack of hyperdrive is then NOT a weakness - it will always have its carrier (A Star Destroyer has a lot of power) to take on the capital ships. This can be compared to the Rebel strategy of sending in a few starfighters designed to be versatile for hit and run attacks (as in the XW games).

 

Now the Empire is limited as to how many hit-and-run attacks they can make: in the OT they don't know where any Rebels are so their strategy will reflect this ie. fighters in carriers only. Later on, they begin to employ other strategies such as Thrawn's capital ship hit-and-fades, and eventually as mentioned, the Preybirds which are specifically designed for versatility and heavy assault. Note also in the games, Gunboats and Assault transports are regularly used as attack craft without capital ship support.

 

On the other hand, the Rebels barely use capital ships. Look at the size of their fleet: its supposed to be their entire fleet compared to a tiny Imperial fleet. But their fighters were the attacking craft, the capital ships were just support. (Yes, so were the imperials. But what does Palpatine know about fighter strategy?)

 

In conclusion, the fighter is superior for its job (and yes, cheaper). After all, the Rebels took Y-wings to the Death Star and thats just dumb... Even though one survived! At the Death star the ratio would be what, 3:1 imperial kills to rebel kills? TIE fighter superiority. (PS. in the original book there are two more squadrons attacking the Death star elsewhere that take most of the fighters with them. They all die.)

 

2. The EU. Well frankly, the new trilogy take so much from the EU its a joke - most obviously Coruscant, The Jedi Order, etc. I like some of the EU, most noteably the Thrawn trilogy since it is in the spirit of the originals and damn well written. This also applies to others such as SotE etc. And the games I feel have to be legitimate but taken with a pinch of salt: no way would the Rebels bother to create a Bulwark Cruiser!

[Trejiuvanat]

On a completely non-related note:

 

TIE Fighter ranked 9th in IGN's ranking of the best games ever. A worthy tribute to a great game. Too bad that LEC cannot tell the difference between a good game and a bad game, and thus keep turning out bad games.

 

http://top100.ign.com/2005/001-010.html

[Mad78]

We can say that the Tie is a great anti fighter craft. The interceptor only improves this side of the ship.

The rebels prefered using alrounders, this is understandable since they had less ships.

[packersfan]

You guys are basing your TIE fighter power on the power it has in a video game, then stormtroopers are pixels to be blasted to dust. It is a game. The opponent is designed to be an inconvience so you can actually make it through the game. In the movies the tie fighters hold up pretty good against the X-wings and other Alliance fighters. Aliiance fighters take a number of hits and go down. A tie fighter on the other hand with no shields blows up after two or three shots.

 

How can you tell the pilots that Vader talks to in Ep. 4 don't look like Jango? They are wearing the helmet!!! The imperial military is made up of Jango clones, other source clones, and conscripts and recruits. Stop hating Expanded Universe. There would be no Coruscant without the EU. Most of Star Wars wouldn't exist without EU.

[Mad78]

We do not hate the EU (for most of us).

 

And we base the power of different sources, not only on games.

[packersfan]

well, good, because without the expanded universe we would still be playing Star Wars Arcade and there would be no chance for video games or even the prequels!

 

How is the TIE Fighter a joke. It is a threat in numbers. One TIE Fighter against an X-Wing is toast but a two, three, a dozen against an X-Wing and that X-Wing will lose its shields quickly and end up equal if not at a disadvantage to the TIE Fighter.

 

It has been a long time since I read the EU with the Empire and the Rebellion/Republic going at it. I read the Thrawn Trilogy in third grade, eight, nine years ago. I'm probably going to buy that trilogy for myself to keep and maybe even the comic book adaption. EU is the most mysterious part in Star Wars to me because there is so much, you actually feel like you're living in a vast galaxy and you don't know what is going on EVERYWHERE! Thanks Expanded Universe.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I think the true reliability of the TI Fighter can be seen in ANH. In the final battle we see Rebel fighters being destroyed quite frequently to the point where we only have one (plus Wedge) left. I'd say that's pretty darn good. Of course the TIEs had the advantage of turrets on the Death Star, but those are really designed for larger ships. We can also assume that, because the Rebels weren't immediately overwhelmed, there were still some TIEs held in reserve on the Death Star that didn't need to be used while the Rebels threw everything they had at the Imperials and lost it all.

[Mad78]

Actually an X-Wing versus a Tie, if the pilots are of equal capacity well then the one most likely to win would be the Tie.

Though the rebel fighters can face up to ties well the over average agility of the tie is sure to give the imperial an advantage.

[Defender_16]

From what I've read, the reason the rebels wern't overwhelmed by TIE's was that only the squadron under Darth Vader's Command launched to engage them. Tarkin didn't consider them a threat and refused to launch any of the 60 TIE fighter wings or so that the Death Star had.

[Mad78]

Where did you read that?

[Eko]

Well Tarkin was supposed to be arrogant, but that would just be indioticy, why take the risk?

 

Although I suppose he thought that might make people think that the Empire actually felt threatened...who knows...