TIE Fighter.

[Jahled]

IMPORTANT ALL READ! For this thread to make any sense the following factors must be observed. Don't bother to contribute if you quote ANYTHING from the childish thinking that seems to have grown up with the expanded Universe. No, simply don't bother. Do not quote from the 'official' Star Wars site, which is clearly about as close to Gearge Lucas's vision of his universe as Supershadow, or a Justice League of Rogue Squadron book or comic you've read, where our heros wipe out wings of TIES in time to reflect why on earth there was a galactic civil war in the first place given the ease at which they have removed another Imperial threat, or whatever, but don't bother.

 

Virtually all of the expanded universe has now been laid to rest in the garbage bin (THANK GOD) with the addition of the latest movie, and good riddence. Besides the Thrawn books, it has been a cringe-worthy experiance all in all, and I am glad the final movie has put the final nail in the coffin for those who are eager to quote some piece of crap from whatever source as if some authority relating to George Lucas's vision, without realizing the quoted author has about much story-telling skill as a grazing bantha, and as much overall perception of the what they have seen in the movies as someone who thinks Yoda is a vulcan.

 

So if you're trembling with authoritarian-rage at my blatent and outright hatred of the EU, go away now. Very simple. This is only a thread, start another if this 'challenge' to the rubbish you've endured erks you, remembering of course this is Star Wars and not real life; so not enough to get bitter about....

 

Elsewhere, we have more or less concluded that the Empire's shocktroopers, Stormtroopers, are clones, the previous two movies have now shown us that. Fighter pilots are clones as well if you look at RotS; so I think we can assume our Davin Felth and Soontir Fel characters can now vannish in a puff of logic. Each would after all be crap in measure to a Spartan-engineered combat developed clone. Clones are the order of the day for the vast bulk of the Empire; no more EU myths of TIE pilots moving up to fleet after a hard tour of duty etc, TIE pilots are as cloned as Boba Fett, and are lethal in what they have been bred to do. 'Order 66' demonstrates the ultimate effect of their breeding as well, remember the Stormtrooper, (is he called Cody?) telling Obi-Wun; 'have I ever let you down,' in RotS, to subsequently turn without hesitation on the Jedi who led them! Why change all this obediance and allegiance by the time of a New Hope. There was a reason why you never saw a Stormtrooper's face in the original three films, or a TIE-Pilot's for that matter, which George Lucas has confimred with the the sequals. Cleared up, move on.

 

RIGHTINESS: TIE FIGHTERS.

 

Ignore all the crap we've been fed about non-hyperspace, non-shielded, mass-produced cheap pieces of junk, that the EU has grown up over the years; for it has no logic, even for pilots who are clones, and putting aside the hard physics that such fighter dueling can't actually happen in the vaccum of space anyway; so to the fantasy:

 

The rebel fighters that attack the Death Star are described as 'antiques' in ANH by the Imperial leaders on the DS, and clearly dismissed as a threat for the million-strong personel of the Death Star. This is their downfall in the underestimation and part of the whole point of the book. Most of the rebels die but Luke saves the day with the power of Force; plus our Corellian, despite GL's actual book stating that that the TIEs present had superior lasers and targeting systems. So figure. I'll give the power of the Force the benefit of the stupity this time round, but not with the EU stuff. Wedge is long overdue his death. His squadron would last half a second in their subsequent adventures without the force giving a helping hand.

 

None of this mass-produced cost effective means of controlling a Galactic Empire. Obi-Wun described the initial TIE they encountered at Alderaan as a 'short range fighter.' It's as simple as that. The Empire would of had 'long-range' fighters with the same hyperspace and shielding capabilty, to match these 'antiques' all over the place; not just the odd 'elite' fighter squadron here and there, but TIE fighters to enforce the Empire's reign, and capable of doing what rebel fighters are capable of doing: hit and fade missions. The EU has created the myth of a basic Imperial fighter without hyperdrives or shield ready to defend the Empire. Put that in the trash as well. That's like the American Navy going for mass-produced Spitfires, knowing the Taliban are building F16s...

 

...just thoughts I guess, but more logical than the stuff on my bookcase,

[Guest JediIgor]

Hold on, the EU is wrong? Can we at least talk about LucasArts video games? Like TIE Fighter?

 

Cause you know, if you play TIE Fighter you will notice that the TIE Defender has a hyperdrive . I really don't know what to say though if you don't believe any of the EU or even starwars.com

[Jahled]

Without quotes might come some sense...

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I'll start with a question: was the line refering to X-Wings and Y-Wings as antiques in the ANH novel?

 

Ok, to start with, I fail to see the point of this thread. We know there were more advanced fighters than the standard TIE. We've all seen TIE Interceptors, Bombers and the TIE Advanced Vader flew, so we know they are there. There may very well be more of them, but to explore that we'd have to delve into the EU.

 

As for our belief that the Empire was concerned with cost-effective production models, you really can't argue to the contrary. They knew what the rebels had done to the first Death Star against TIE Fighters, so if they had large numbers of more advanced models, why was the second Death Star defended by hordes of TIE Fighters with a light smattering of TIE Interceptors?

 

Now your claim that the Prequal Trilogy has somehow killed the EU is absolutely insane. Anything that directly contradicted the movies is, of course, wrong, but all Episode III has done is correct a few errors and strengthened the belief (well, proved is more like it) that all or most of our masked Imperial men are indeed clones. Why must you accept the EU? Because, no matter how silly some of it is, it's all you've got. It goes more in-depth than anything GL has come up with. It expands our knowledge into the post-RotJ era, and until GL comes out with something else, that is his vission plain and simple. And to say that even Star Wars.com is as accurate as Supershadow, well that's just comming it a bit high. The database there is nothing more than a compilation of known information from both the EU and the movies. I know you said not to argue this here, but frankly this is the best place to do it.

[FD6NY]

Sorry to pop in like this, but...

 

You can't really say that Davin Felth or Soontir Fel never existed. Just because the Empire had clones, doesn't mean that the Empire would not recruit others to their cause. I believe that if you look into it, the prequels, originals and EU can all be connected together, even though there may undoubtedly be some discrepances. I agree with Grand Admiral Thrawn.

[Guest JediIgor]

Something I found interesting:

http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=1799

 

During the trailer the LEC guy says that in Battlefront II you see Vader's personal regiment go from a bunch of clone troopers to stormtroopers as the clonetroopers become obsolete.

 

What does this mean? Clearly the Imperial army was initially only clones but as time went by and the wars raged on, their fixed supply of clones dwindled down until the ranks had to be replaced by yer ole' regular humans by the time of ANH.

 

Plus it'd be mighty stupid for Lucas to have approved all of the EU books with stormies being actual people instead of clones. There is a reason why none of the books really mentioned Luke/Leia's parents and that's because Lucas didn't want everything to be completely contradictory!

[Skynxnex]

Oh no not the cloning debate again.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Actually this isn't really about cloning anymore. We've all agreed that the Empire was at least based on clones, and that it is most probable that the stormtroopers and TIE Pilots we see in the movies were indeed clones. It has now, however, turned to the validity of the EU.

 

It would seem that, right now, most of us are of the opinion that, though there were pleanty of stupid ideas in the EU, it's there and so long as nothing George Lucas has writted contradicts it, that's the way it is.

[Guest JediIgor]

I myself find to like SWTC's explanation of what is true Star Wars and what isn't the best:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/faq.html#3

 

So whenever something seemingly contradictory pops up, the simplest solution that will answer both questions is probably the right one. And in this case the simplest solutions would be for the clones to become obsolete and replaced by humans .

[Evaders99]

Okay, I don't think there's a contradiction here. If you consider the X-Wing games as an exagerration for gameplay value, then it makes the Rebel fighters much more overpowered. You see this same effect in the books, where starfighters make all the difference. It doesn't mean that EU is wrong, but it does show a preference for the 'good guys to win' effect.

[Guest JediIgor]

By the way, there is nothing wrong with Wedge Antilles doing as well as he did. If we consider Erich Hartmann, the German ace who had 352 victories during WWII, it's not too different. Hartmann was flying a quite good plane (the Me-109) mostly against Russian Sturmoviks..

 

Similarly Wedge flies a slightly better interceptor (the X-Wing) against large numbers of inferior TIE Fighters. So really, it takes a little of skill and a little of flying superior planes and it's no wonder that Wedge Antilles did so well with Rogue Squadron.

 

Incase you don't remember Hartmann lived throughout WWII and lived until old age got the better of him in 1995. If it could happen on Earth, it could happen in Star Wars .

[AdmiralFishface]

I direct your attention to the officer Vader talks to before he proceeds to his personal fighter.

Several fighters have broken off from the main group. Come with

me!

Excuse me if I misunderstand the situation, but I believe that man to be one of Vader's later wingmen. Does he look like Jango? Like all other people from the OT, of course he doesn't. He may only be one of a special few, hand-picked by Vader or Tarkin; he may only be the exception to the rule, but he is there.

If he is a pilot, and if he is the exception to the rule of clones making up the Empire's pilot corps, he is even more important, for he would illustrate the superiority of regular folks over the prequel Jango-spam.

If he is a pilot, and a clone, he is one of those examples of better gene material being used for specific tasks, like we suspected to exist in connection with the Stormtroopers.

 

Also note that many of the brave Rebel pilots who died did so because they faced Lord Vader as an opponent, in a high-speed race along a track where they couldn't maneuver nor fight back. This is hardly a testament to the power of the standard TIE/ln.

 

I will agree though that the game TIE is grossly underpowered and fighters like X-Wings are usually too strong. Why is that so? Because you normally play the good guys, and you normaly want to survive doing so.

 

I can accept the TIE as a non-shielded short range interceptor, his major asset being his high speed and maneuverability (which can also make it hard to control, as many a poor pilot in asteroid fields or the bowels of an unfinished battle station has illustrated). I will not agree with the games and some of the EU that an X-Wing's shields will give it protection against a full barrage of green laser fire long enough for the X-Wing pilot to notice, turn, place the enemy in his crosshairs, finish lunch, and pull the trigger. Such gross underpowerment of the TIE is a direct contradiction of the movies.

 

EU commentary below. Read, or read not, but I feel I have to write it.

Note that, of all the EU, I accept the X-Wing novels as some of the best and believable... in terms of starfights, at least. X-Wings DIE. They don't gradually lose their shields and think 'oh my, I really should put more power to the deflectors so I can go on pondering about the horrors of this war while I blast another squad of eyeballs'. They get struck by laser a few times, and it's over. Those that survive are the best of the best of the best the Rebellion/New Republic, with its numerous supporting worlds, have to offer, and they survive because of their experience and skill.. and luck.

 

Comics, on the other hand, I mostly don't even bother to read. There are better ones out there that don't have to try to hide their inferiority by writing STAR WARS!!!1 across their cover.

[Jahled]

That's like the American Navy going for mass-produced Spitfires, knowing the Taliban are building F16s...

 

This dudes is the point I was trying to make...*

 

I must get my hands on the X-Wing TIE Fighter games; though I must confess to having become very bored with inspecting cargo containers in X-Wing Alliance...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*without RL politcal reverberations

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

That's like the American Navy going for mass-produced Spitfires, knowing the Taliban are building F16s...

 

This dudes is the point I was trying to make...*

 

I must get my hands on the X-Wing TIE Fighter games; though I must confess to having become very bored with inspecting cargo containers in X-Wing Alliance...

 

Remember though, TIE Fighters are still capable of handling an X-Wing, they're just not as tough. A Spitfire can't handle an F-16, we know that. So, look at what the American military does do. What would you classify as the ultimate airforce? What about one that uses nothing but F-22 Raptors? But does America do this? No. Why? Because it's not cost effective. Instead they create squadrons of F-16s and F-18s and F-14s and then create a few squadrons of the top-notch F-22 squadrons. So, if we convert this into Star Wars terms, we have alot of TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors and TIE Advanced x1s with just a few TIE Defender squadrons.

 

I agree with you about X-Wing Alliance. I much preferred the X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter games.

[NIIIC]

I have some thing to say, I might be wrong, but I will say it anyway, so don’t laugh at me if it is stupid. In E.II they explain that the clones of Boba / Jango Fett (never know which one is the first) grow faster than a normal human would. That would mean that they will become old faster than a human. But anyway, even if they don't get older faster, after 20 years of fighting, you aren’t anymore on the combat fields. Because supposing that the clones were about 25 in RotS , they must be about 40 in ANH, which is way over the age were you fight in a commando section during a war.

 

P.S sorry if the phrasing isn't correct, I was in a rush.

[Colonel_Olorin]

i think the simplest way to answer this is if all the storm troppers and pilots and gunners and everyone else of privtaes rank. because the clone are much better at doing everything a private can do. why is that all the bridge crews aren't made up of clones and only the officers and section heads normal humans. and why does luke complain when he has to wait one more season before he can go to the accademy lie his freind biggs( you know the pilot who died defending him) did

[Jahled]

Hold on, the EU is wrong?

 

Just a bit crap.

 

Cause you know, if you play TIE Fighter you will notice that the TIE Defender has a hyperdrive .

 

I noticed this with Rebellion. (and what a long overdue joy!)

 

I really don't know what to say though if you don't believe any of the EU or even starwars.com

 

Not a question of what to believe, but what would make the slightest bit of sense in a galaxy where the Empire has more or less subjugated a huge chunk of the inner rim. Quite frankly much of what I have experianced with the EU is daft, stupid, and wouldn't make any tactical logic; no shields TIE philosophy, pilots doubling their efforts philosophy, no hyperdrives against an opposing enemy who has philosophy; it doesn't make any sense! This is not how you would approach controlling an empire! In a galaxy of billions of systems your military approach wouldn't be to mass produce something you know full well your enemy has more superior craft to overcome, numbers or no numbers.

 

Ok, to start with, I fail to see the point of this thread. We know there were more advanced fighters than the standard TIE. We've all seen TIE Interceptors, Bombers and the TIE Advanced Vader flew...

 

My point had been to explore the possibility that the EU myth that has grown up around the notion of an Empire based around a tactical philosophy of non-hyperdrive/shielded fighters against an opponent (even pirates and non-rebel fighter threats) is absurd. And it is a myth that has grown outside of the films. Just like the Empire's xenophobia; there's nothing to suggest that with any serious depth in the films other than an Imperial ofrficer describing Chewie as a 'thing' (Leia describes him as a walking carpet at one point, so who's more racist?). All I am trying to suggest is to sieze back some logic from an expanded universe that clearly went slightly stupid...

[Skynxnex]

I hear that man.

 

When you look at it, its really hard to see for certain that the Empire is in fact xenophobic.

 

Some things to consider:

 

1) Humans are by far the most populous race

2) We know a vast chunk of the Imperial fleet and so on is comprised of clones

3) These clones were made (atleast some anyway) from Jango Fett who is in fact a human.

4) We know the galaxy is a big place and that the imperial fleet is massive

 

 

With these things in mind its not hard to realize that even on all of the ships we saw where primarily humans operated, that does not mean necessarily that the Empire is xenophobic. Humans also comprise the single largest population segment in the star wars galaxy. Since humans are soooo predominant it would only make sense then for the vast majority of the Imperial military to be comprised of them.

 

Personally I think the EU got hijacked by people turning the Empire into a sort of Nazi-empire thing and wanted to make it appear something that it might not in fact be.

[FD6NY]

Personally I think the EU got hijacked by people turning the Empire into a sort of Nazi-empire thing and wanted to make it appear something that it might not in fact be.

 

You also have to remember, though, that the Empire is controlled by a Sith and his apprentice. Whatever the Emperor wants, the Emperor gets. We have seen in the movies that if you fail, or even happen to disagree with the way things are run or whatever, you'll die. This type of government is essentially a dictatorship, kind of like the one that used to exist in Iraq. In a dictatorship, the dictator, emperor, king, or whatever they want to be called, will do pretty much anything they want to do and will kill those who even might have thought about thinking about opposing him/her. Maybe, when the Empire was first declared, it could have been considered a constitutional monarchy, with a senate or parliament and a King in charge, but Palpatine got rid of the senate in ANH, so it is more like a dictatorship. Once Palpatine and the second Death Star were killed, another dictator rose to take place of the Emperor and continued in his legacy (ex: Isard, Thrawn, Pellaeon, etc.).

[Stellar_Magic]

Stellar decides to wade into the fight swinging. Firstly there are several points to be made.

 

That's like the American Navy going for mass-produced Spitfires, knowing the Taliban are building F16s...

 

Jahled, while I can see where you're coming from thats a pretty horid analogy. The difference between the two types of craft are quite extreme, much more extreme then the difference between the TIE/In and the T-65B. The main difference between the two comes down to a difference in design philosophy and to illustrate this I'll go to everybody's favorite example of warfare, WWII.

 

In the Pacific War, the United States and the Empire of Japan had two distinctly different approaches to fighter design. The IJN came up with the A6M2 Zero, a fighter that out turned, out climbed, and out fought most of its fighters. The USAAF came up with craft like the P-47, the P-38, and the P-51, none of which could out climb or out turn the later model of Zero. They featured heavier armor, armament, and dive speed.

 

The same is true of the situation in the Star Wars Universe. A TIE/In is more maneuverable, lightly armed, and slightly faster then an X-wing. Whereas an X-wing is more heavily armed and armored (Shields). In short, the TIE is a dogfighter whereas the X-wing is a hit and run craft.

 

They're not really completely outclassed by one another but come from two different ideas as to how starfighter combat would occur in the future. Dogfights or hit and run.

 

Another thing Jahled just because a craft is obsolete doesn't mean that production of the craft just stops and is replaced. The majority of the Soviet Air Force was made up of I-16s in 1943 when it had already been obsolete in 1939 and they had more modern aircraft in their inventory.

 

Most important of all Jahled, remember its the pilot not the plane that decides most engagements.

[Darthronar]

For starts he has a partial point on the EU. Sometimes it's brilliant but sometimes a mess.

A great big contradictory mess or worse... .

And indeed the Rebels in the later EU rise to power like nothing. The way the Empire disintegrated so easily and all was absurd.

And the fleet even without Palpy's psy boost at Endor would still ahve destroyed the tiny Rebel Fleet after the end of the Death Star.

But good... heroes have to win. It's a basic moral in almost all tales.

(except those marvelous Comics about Vader or Fett lolol)

 

Ties are off great modern technology yes... BUT that doesn't mean they are stronger their point is to be easy to maintain and easy to produce.

Think of the Russian Tanks in WOII.

Is logical.

Plus... the Tie is less resistant (smaller) but faster than most Rebel Fighters.

The Empire however has Fighters who outclass most Rebel ones.

 

As for the clones their rapid aging and the fact they have short lifespans and all. Plus the cloning i doubt continues. (recruitment from populace and all) Or if it does they'll need to add to the whole normal people to be able to man the Empire.

However the EU now cotnradicts itself and suddenly Clones are seen in the ranks after all these years (lol) and I even have a comic where Vader talks about it. Have some more made etc.

 

And yet again... the questions are all perspective bound and the EU fails to even give a definitive answer on a lot of things.

(New EU will contradict old publications like the Jango Fett/Boba Fett mess)

[Darth_Rob]

[quote="Skynxnex

 

When you look at it, its really hard to see for certain that the Empire is in fact xenophobic.

 

 

 

I believe that the Empire was in fact xenophobic. For one, in ANH, Tarkin mentions the Emperor's "New Order". The New Order was, in fact, a completely blatant racist attack (politically) on aliens.

 

Secondly, there is not one alien Imperial ever in the OT, but the rebel alliance has some in ROJ, when the Rebellion gets big enough.

[Skynxnex]

[quote name="Skynxnex

 

When you look at it' date=' its really hard to see for certain that the Empire is in fact xenophobic.

 

 

 

I believe that the Empire was in fact xenophobic. For one, in ANH, Tarkin mentions the Emperor's "New Order". The New Order was, in fact, a completely blatant racist attack (politically) on aliens.

 

Secondly, there is not one alien Imperial ever in the OT, but the rebel alliance has some in ROJ, when the Rebellion gets big enough.[/quote]

 

 

I am not so sure. The 'New Order' is simply the Empire. The Empire replaces the Old Republic which was crumbling. I mean take a look at it this way, apart from the movies we just have the EU. Lucas has already contradicted parts of the EU with the prequels. I never said the Empire was evil, it was evil because it was led by a Sith Lord and so on. However, you also though cannot dispute that for some the Empire was also a godsend. The reason why, the Empire helped to maintain order across such a vast expanse of space and we even see in the EU the New Republic fails to effectively enforce the peace. In some ways I could show you the New Republic is actually more evil than the Empire. Had the Vong invaded the galaxy under the Emperor they would have been destroyed very quickly. The Imperial fleet at its height was much more vast than anything the rebels could ever hope to field err...New Republic. Instead the New Republic through bureacratic idiocy allows several worlds to be destroyed and its populations massacred.

[Jahled]

Some pretty good posts there guys!

 

Stella Magic/DarthRenar: your referances to WWII both hit the nail squarely as reasonable comparisons. One factor in the allied victory over the Japanese was their recycling of pilots; ie new recruits could be trained by veterans of active combat with all the experiance that entailed as opposed to the Japanese approach which kept their pilots at the front and thus gradually squandered their talent.

 

I think it is more or less obvious the Empire and the Alliance did approach with two differing philosophies as demonstrated in their fighters. In this vein I think my view here has been influenced to much by reading to many daft Rogue Squadron comics which I think Mr Fishface addressed a very good point, that I should have paused to heed...

 

...i'll force myself to read a EU book or two now. Evaders posted a good list.

[Darth_Gonzo]

lol, long live the Empire I say. However, I don't like this debating on whether the EU is correct or not, because as someone stated earlier, without the EU we would have very little. Imagine a Star Wars with no books, games, comics, merchandise, but only movies. You would have no answers to any questions that weren't specifically answered in dialogue during the movies. Because of this, you have to take liberties, and that has become the EU, which in part is our only source for all the little things that truly flesh out that galaxy far, far away

 

On Pilots and Clones: You think anyone would turn down a volunteer? Ofcourse there were good ol' fashioned humans in the all walks of the Imperial military. Beside that point, I read in an interview that clone stock had sometimes gotten worse rather than better. Politcal deals are made for so-and-so's DNA to be made into clones for the Imperial military for this much money/influence/power, etc hence the differing voices and all around behavior of stormtroopers in the OT. And ofcourse one has to consider where all the regular humans that comprise the officers and pit crews and etc that are seen. There is also and Imperial Academy that puts out tons of volunteers from all kinds of planets from Corellia (Han) to Tatooine (Biggs and probably Luke, if only...)

 

on Xenophobia and the Empire: Exactly, whatever the Emperor wants, he better sure as hell get. We cannot answer this question. We only have what the EU tells us. In the movies we see Palpatine (pre-Emperor) with Alien cohorts. Perhaps he's only using them for political gain and nothing more. The movie does not overtly make the point so we cannot imply anything without help of the EU. Having said that, one can only assume that the Empire was xenophobic because there's nothing stating otherwise in the movies, which take precedence over anything after.

 

on Fighters: It's simply a design philosophy whether or not to use fighters more like the TIE or the X-Wing. The Empire's philosophy was one based on power, cost efficiency, and the ideal that, "You are expendable." In that sense, it fits them perfectly. About Wedge killing hundreds by himself: It's completely plausible if you figure there are billions of people in the New Republic. Thousands of them are pilots. Wedge has assembled himself and only 11 others as the best fighters in all the New Republic.

 

as an aside: I wonder how the Empire would have fared against the Vong. They'd be losing scores of fighters, what with no shields and all. But then again, even the Imperial Remnant has established a new philosophy of fighter design by flying the Chiss clawcraft (seemingly, somehow) and SoroSuub Preybirds

 

anyway, my train of thought derailed so more laters