Liea too powerful

[Darth_Rob]

Hey, does anyone agree with me that Leia is to powerful in Rebellion? If Im playing as the Rebels (which I actually, on the rare occasion), once Luke returns from Dagobah, I have him B-line to Leia, so she can learn the ways of the Force. I then have the two of them head out and do whatever, until I find the Emperor (usually Coruscant). I then take out the ships, defenses, and troops, and then have Luke and Leia do constant missions to the planet so that they can engage and injur the Emperor. My complaint is that once I started this process w/ just Leia there, and the first attempt (mind you, her combat was still fairly low), she was able to injur the Emperor! I couldn't believe it! There is no way that Princess Leia could possibly stand up to the Emperor, espicially without having had any Jedi training. I couldn't get over it. That's one major disadvantage to playing the Empire: Luke and Leia could own Vader and Palpatine so easily by doing cheap tricks like this.

[Darthronar]

I know but than again. SW is filled with the good guys winning with cheap tricks.

Luke defeating Vader with barely any training? Breaking through the defence of a guy with the strength of 10 wookies?

Or the death of Darth Maul which was cheap too.

Maul isn't Vader but he could give him quite a fight.

And Obi was really weak than.

Lol.

 

But it's the 'chance' factor which is pretty present in Rebellion.

So a wimp could in theory take out Vader or Palpy... even thoguh that's absurd.

Is why i edit the stats of Vader and Palpy a bit as i play.

Vader even a bit stronger in combat and force. Palpy better diplomat and even more forcepowers.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Leia was recieving combat training starting about age 12 i think. she was young. Bail decided that if his daughter was gonna be a Rebel, she ought to be able to defend herself.

[Darth_Rob]

Yes, training she received at that age would be efficient if she were picking off stormtroopers with a blaster (a la ANH). But I'm referring to the fact that Leia (with absolutely no Jedi training) was able to injure the Emperor (who is a Dark Jedi Master).

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

I cant remember Palpy's combat rating bc every time I play I injure him trying to capture him, but I do remember that it isn't very high.

 

Also how good of a Dark Jedi Master can he be if he can't sense the intentions of his apprentice (someone he's been teaching for roughly 30-35 yrs). Vader decided to pick Palpy up and throw him into the reactor core...SO, either Palpy doesn't care anymore (never gonna happen) or he wasn't strong enough to sense the impending doom and do something about it, thus giving the perfect answer to your original ?...Palpy was distracted when Leia injured him.

[DarthTofu]

... or else he just didn't devote resources to discovering if Vader would betray him. If you read the novelization of ROTS you will see that that's why Mace Windu dies- he's too focused on palpy and doesn't notice Anakin coming after him with a lightsaber in hand. I personally go with palpy got lepracy and lost a limb during the battle, thus he was injured. but that's just me.

[Darth_Rob]

Unfortunatly, I guess I have to say something mean about my man Palpy. As Luke says, in ROJ, "you're overconfidence is your weakness". Palpy assumed he had Vader whipped after training him over all those years, and didn't consider that the presence of Vader's son would be enough to ignite the tiny speck of light that remained hidden deep within the darkness of Vader. That is why Palpatine did not realize that Vader was mulling over whether his loyalities lied with his master or his son.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

I guess we'll never know who's right, me Rob Tofu all 3 of us or none of us, all because Lucas had someone else write the ROTJ book. I'm inclined to say that I'm right and you 2 are wrong, but I know that's just my ego talking...In all honesty thoUGH (in tribute to one of the other threads - there are your extra U, G & H (Tofu your last post on 50 Bul. vs. 50 SSD)) it probably is a cross between what happened to Windu and Rob's second to last sentence.

 

How old are you guys, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious to know how many years you've got on me.

[Darth_Rob]

I'm 23. I hope you don't consider me an old fogy.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

I'm actually 20, so if ur a fogy, I'm not far behind you.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Theres another possibility that we're missing. When we send someone in Rebellion on an "abduction" mission, we don't know how they do it. Talon Karrde and Thrawn are in this game, so Mykyr (sp?) exists in the game's continuity. For all we know, when we send Leia, Chewie, or anyone on an abudction mission to capture Palpy, they could take Ysalamiri with them to negate his Force powers.

Or, they could set a time bomb and escape. Since Palpy is nowhere near them, he doesn't sense the intention and thus falls into the trap. They could poison his water. They could use gas. What I'm saying is that all the mission tells us is that they succeed--not HOW they succeed. I'm inclined to believe that Leia uses her connections to find an alternate way to subdue Palpy, and the picture we see is more representative.

[angelus512]

So gotta jump in on this discussion.

 

Two points and two points only.

 

1. Palpatine = best Sith Lord that ever lived with MAYBE the exception of Plagueis or Exar Kun. But considering as we've got more to go on with Palpatine then its sorta a no-brainer.

Anywho the reason in my opinion why Palpatine didn't sense Vader's intent to dump him unceremoniously down the chute was simply that it was a split decision.

Vader had absolutely no intention, was 100% loyal to his Master but given the circumstances Vader just made a split second decision that couldn't be felt, forseen or otherwise by Palpatine.

Sort of how Anakin made that split second decision to slice off Mace's hand. It could have easily gone the other way.

 

2. In the Star Wars universe at least nothing sh*ts me more than the Rebels (not new republic always rebels) win everything (and in some cases of poor writting or poor directing depending on your medium either books or movies) they win by ridiculous plot twists that leave you honestly asking wtf?

 

But aside from that what has seeped out through all SW literature and the movies is that when the Imperials are on their game...not GREAT but just on their game (ie not drunk) the rebellion gets tactically manhandled every single time.

The whole literature and movies are dedicated to the rebels winning but they only win in situations it appears where the Imperials are flat out disorganised and running around like lunatics.

All it takes is some order and a leader who isn't insane and the imperials start romping it over the rebellion yet again.

 

Point in fact Thrawn, and subsequently Grodin Tierce in the 2nd set of books. In both circumstances the Empire was weaker by far, had its ass handed to it many a time but soon as some resemblance of order is restored the rebellion gets owned.

THey only ever win through Imperial instabilities or just crackpots that lead them.

 

Oh and aside from that Palpatine 1v1 would have totally fried Luke back to that backwater planet he calls home.

 

Er...seems i got carried away with myself but my 2 cents.

[angelus512]

Forgot to add this part in support of Point 2.

 

Did anybody HONESTLY buy the premise that Han Solo, Leia, Chewie, two sexually questionable driods and a few rag tag army wannabes could take a security sealed bunker from an entire battalion of hardened (apparently according to what was said "my best troops") supported by AT-AT's?

Oh I almost forgot, and a small army of unwashed native's with 'sticks and stones'.

[Guest Scathane]

Forgot to add this part in support of Point 2.

 

Did anybody HONESTLY buy the premise that Han Solo, Leia, Chewie, two sexually questionable driods and a few rag tag army wannabes could take a security sealed bunker from an entire battalion of hardened (apparently according to what was said "my best troops") supported by AT-AT's?

Yes, I did... But then again, I also bought the premise that the emperor can shoot blue lightning from his fingertips... Maybe that's just me... Or maybe you just acknowledge that the characters you mention are quite exceptional...

 

Oh I almost forgot, and a small army of unwashed native's with 'sticks and stones'.

Ah, I must admit that GL threads on dangerous ground here...

[Darth_Rob]

Hey, I still prefer the Ewoks to the Gungans anyday!

[angelus512]

Scathane we each have our POV's which is cool.

 

But not to stir the pot some more the last thing i'll say in reply to what you posted is pretty simple.

 

The emperor with the whole force lightning stuff. Thats just part of SW. Basic fact, can't ever be changed and...its like calling the sky blue.

What i was referring to was the plausability of what the rebellion had taking the shield gen on Endor.

It was just implausable.

As for the emperors lightning yes implausable too but in the context of SW its just fact.

Hrm i'm running in circles. Basically the force lightning shindig is just part of the SW universe, simple cannon law.

But a small crew of rebels overpowering a battalion is in the real world implausable and in the context of SW also far fetched.

If Leia for example was supposed to have powers of mind control in the SW universe and thats how they got the base then i'd be cool with that simply because in terms of SW its plausable.

 

If you get my meaning...

[DarthTofu]

How old are you guys, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious to know how many years you've got on me.

 

Me, I'm 14, almost 15. That's right, you got corrected on your spelling by a mere teenager! *Laughs head off and falls onto the drafting and design lab's floor* Okay, now that that's off my chest...

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Did anybody HONESTLY buy the premise that Han Solo, Leia, Chewie, two sexually questionable driods and a few rag tag army wannabes could take a security sealed bunker from an entire battalion of hardened (apparently according to what was said "my best troops") supported by AT-AT's?

 

Basically the force lightning shindig is just part of the SW universe, simple cannon law.

But a small crew of rebels overpowering a battalion is in the real world implausable and in the context of SW also far fetched.

 

Are you then saying that a Smuggler/Scoundrel can't have incredibly large amounts of luck in the SW universe? If that's the case keep this in mind...it was Solo's luck (and Kenobi's distraction) that allowed the Falcon, and those on it to escape the Death Star, thus setting up the Alliance victory at Yavin and ESB.

 

Also if luck isn't a part of SW, then Wedge under Vader's guns in the Death Star trench, then who commands the Rogues after Luke leaves for Dagobah? Wes? Hobbie? You NEED Wedge. No one else would have been able to turn Rogue Squadron into what it became.

 

So angelus, the answer to your second point is luck. Plain and simple.

 

And Tofu, as long as I get my point across, I don't much care what my typing looks like. When you spend as much time chatting as I have, you start to intentionally drop letters off of words.

[DarthTex]

DarthTofu wrote:

 

Me, I'm 14, almost 15. That's right, you got corrected on your spelling by a mere teenager! ...

 

Mitth_raw_nuruodo wrote:

 

... And Tofu, as long as I get my point across, I don't much care what my typing looks like. ...

 

Tofu now has over one thousand posts, if someone was to correct him constantly (I find that to be tedious ), they would have another thousand posts to add to their own.

 

Back to topic:

 

I've never had Leia do anything but diplomacy in the game (at least in the better part of the beginning). By the time Luke gets around to do Jedi training, the outcome is just merely a formality.

[Guest Scathane]

Scathane we each have our POV's which is cool.

...err, right... And where exactly did I say you couldn't have your own POV?

 

The emperor with the whole force lightning stuff. Thats just part of SW. Basic fact, can't ever be changed and...its like calling the sky blue.

What i was referring to was the plausability of what the rebellion had taking the shield gen on Endor.

It was just implausable.

As for the emperors lightning yes implausable too but in the context of SW its just fact.

Hrm i'm running in circles. Basically the force lightning shindig is just part of the SW universe, simple cannon law.

That may well be... but then it's just as senseless as questioning the plausibility of the success of the shield generator attack, isn't it? The fact that the success of this attack is a vital part of one of the movies makes it cannon enough, I'd say.

 

But a small crew of rebels overpowering a battalion is in the real world implausable and in the context of SW also far fetched.

Blue lightning from the fingertips of any living being would be implausible in the real world as well. Moreover, a small group of elite forces taking over a strategic object in enemy territory may be more plausible than you think.

 

In the context of Star Wars, it's perfectly plausible because you're not talking about a small group of rebels, you're talking about a small group of elite forces led by none less than Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa, Han Solo and Chewbacca. In the real world you would be talking about a mix between Buddha, Ghandi, Mandela and Alexander the Great (Luke), Margaret Thatcher, Lady Di, Joan of Ark and the Queen of Sheba (Leia), Francis Drake, Captain Morgan, Rommel and d'Artagnan (Han), and finally a mixture of Atlas, Hercules, Sasquatch and the Yeti (Chewie)... Lest we forget that they had a droid that speaks more languages and knows more racial etiquette than anyone or anything can conceive, has the brain the size of a planet and is - indeed - just as annoying as Marvin AND a wonderful little astromech who can hack into anything programmed by anyone...

 

I think it's perfectly plausible these guys got in...

Edited January 5, 2006 by Scathane

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Tofu now has over one thousand posts, if someone was to correct him constantly (I find that to be tedious ), they would have another thousand posts to add to their own.

 

I've noticed that as well Tex. I've even considered going through and correcting all his mistakes just to get the rank that does w/ my name, decided not to bc then not only would ppl hate me, but I wouldn't be able to post anymore bc I'd exceed my rank

 

I once had a game where Leia had a combat rating over 1500.

[angelus512]

Well this topic has had its shelf life.

 

Scathane the only comment you've made I'll address now is the remark in regards to my comment about POV.

You appear to wish to twist that to your own mindset.

What I mean was we all have differing POV's, thats it. Nothing else.

 

As such this topic is pretty much dead anyways.

What one says somebody else will dissagree with and I'm not here to force views on anybody and I suspect neither is anybody else.

 

So topic's dead for me now. In short Rebels suck Imperials rule.

[Krytos]

Well, I might as well throw in my 2 cents into this conversation.

 

First off - to the original topic:

I've never really had Leia that powerful in any of my games, with the exception of her diplomacy reaching several hundred. So, I can't really say she's that powerful.

But, considering the game and the way it’s made (ie. there's a lot of chance with characters) anything's possible. I'd be more worried if one of the really minor characters became that powerful - say one of those little Sullust guys

 

Also, I have to agree with what ATA (AdmiralToguroAni) said. We have no idea at all how the mission was done; maybe she uses her diplomatic skills to convince half the planet to attack Palpy?

 

 

 

Second - the off topic . . . topic:

Well, there's no doubt that SW is a good guys must win sort of story (even with the newer series, such as the NJO). Though, it's never without their losses - such as in Empire Strikes Back, where they suffered a massive defeat.

Something I've hated with the EU is the way they treat this. In effect, the Rebels are all powerful against the Empire, who appears to be absolutely useless in every way. Storm Troopers have been given this false identity that they're practically walking targets that can't hit the side of a Sand Crawler (get the pun - if not, watch Episode IV). This isn't really shown in the movies, with exception of Episode VI, though that's also a bit debatable due to being outnumbered by a guerrilla style enemy.

 

As for the attack on the Death Star's shield gen, I also buy it. Let's not forget that most of the Rebel's Elite troops (like Crix Madine) were formally Elite Imperials, who would have a lot of training and know how the enemy worked (because they use to be the enemy). And whilst the Rebellion was "rag tag" compared to the Empire, they were able to muster large fleets as well as learn to survive against the Empire.

Back to Endor - I think Palpy was just boasting about the troops that were stationed there being Elite, in an attempt to make Luke turn faster. That being said, they were able to ambush and capture these elite Rebel troops (who could be considered in par with the real world SAS, KSK and Navy SEALs etc) - so they weren't dunces.

They only lost because of those pesky little Ewoks - who outnumbered the Imperials significantly, maybe even 10 - 1, though who can say the exact numbers. And, as history shows (such as America's history), "inferior" natives can be very deadly to an unsuspecting and over confident enemy.

Though again, even with the help of the annoying Ewoks, the Rebels started loosing until Chewie captured an AT-ST and was able to turn the tide (as shown in the movie, the Imperials didn't know that that AT-ST had been taken over as it flanked another ST and was used to break into the bunker).

 

So, I do think it was possible - though mainly due to a lot of luck, and coincidences.

Well, that's my contention anyway.

[DarthTofu]

Are you then saying that a Smuggler/Scoundrel can't have incredibly large amounts of luck in the SW universe? If that's the case keep this in mind...it was Solo's luck (and Kenobi's distraction) that allowed the Falcon, and those on it to escape the Death Star, thus setting up the Alliance victory at Yavin and ESB.

 

Also if luck isn't a part of SW, then Wedge under Vader's guns in the Death Star trench, then who commands the Rogues after Luke leaves for Dagobah? Wes? Hobbie? You NEED Wedge. No one else would have been able to turn Rogue Squadron into what it became.

 

Alright, all together now: Where I come from, there's no such thing as luck!

[Guest Scathane]

Scathane the only comment you've made I'll address now is the remark in regards to my comment about POV.

You appear to wish to twist that to your own mindset. What I mean was we all have differing POV's, thats it. Nothing else.

No, I do not wish to twist things to my own mindset. BTW, could you tell me, angelus, why you speak of POV when talking about others and yourself, whereas you talk about twist to my own mindset when you talk about me?

 

Moreover, this is the second time you've implied I deny other people their opinions without once backing this up with a valid argument. I don't think this makes for proper nettiquette, so I'd rather you'd stop it.

 

 

What one says somebody else will dissagree with and I'm not here to force views on anybody and I suspect neither is anybody else.

It's called debate and it's what keeps these forums alive, angelus.

 

Notice you don't see me laughing?

 

Alright, all together now: Where I come from, there's no such thing as luck!

I bet you don't come from Corellia...