"Can ‘Star Wars: Episode III’ be saved?"

[dmfitz29]

Good writing Jahled. I agree with it. George Lucas is still a great story teller, I guess now we are just overly critical and expect better and better movies. About Jar Jar; I guess not many people really liked the Ewoks (or was that just me) but weve gotten past it because the movies have other redeming qualities and they are classics now. Maybe Jar Jar is the same thing, the better parts of PM and AOTC will give the movies a possitive spin. I personally think Hayden is good, he has a great opinionated and emotional young man attitidue about him, just the perfect attitude for someone who will be corrupted and turned to the dark side.

[Barkoa]

I agree with what you say about Anakin, Dmfitz, but what made the originals classics is that they were so good For their time! They rocked their generation, and these 3 are being carried by their previous success. They aren't as fundamentally generation-shaping as their predecessors.

[Trejiuvanat]

They are much in the situation described by GL in the ANH Novelization prologue for the Republic.

 

The Episodes I, II, III are moved by the momentum from the Original Trilogy, they originals passed beyond the admirable and attained the awesome, and now the newer episodes are prey to the massive organs of marketing and merchandising.

 

I believe, that Lucas did not undergo the depuration of the prequels as carefully as he did with the originals, nor did he do as much research, it feels as if he only glued all the leftover ideas he had from making the Original Trilogy and mixed them with his conception of the prequels.

 

It might have helped him to watch some Kurosawa movies before making Ep I or even re-reading The Hero of Thousand Faces, as Anakin is supposed to be the antithesis of the Campbellian hero.

 

And if we complained about Jar-Jar in Ep I, there's supposedly be a really 9yr-old-class-joke in Ep III by Yoda this time...

[dmfitz29]

I agree with what you say about Anakin, Dmfitz, but what made the originals classics is that they were so good For their time! They rocked their generation, and these 3 are being carried by their previous success. They aren't as fundamentally generation-shaping as their predecessors.

Thank you first of all. Secondly, I see what you are saying. This is a valid point, I completely agree that they are progressing on past success, but surely that does not degrade GL as a story teller.

[Barkoa]

I dont know what it is about Star Wars. How can we love and hate it so much at the same time?! I think for me it's that I like the universe GL created- the worlds, the people, the force etc., but I guess I don't like fully the story he created with that universe. if that makes any sense!

[Darth_Officer]

star wars is a white elephant. we love it but hate it idosynchronsiesisceissi. did I spell that right ?

 

Anyways, I cannot wait until the DVD trilogy comes out. I am going to watch it over and over again until I throw up.

 

Thanks for listening to my rants and raves.

[Barkoa]

The feeling is mutual. (about watching them over and over)

 

Yes you spelled that right, for the first few letters!

 

A white elephant? What is it with colours and animals? Anyway, I can bag it all I want, but I still'll watch them heapss.

[Guest Scathane]

I think that we love and hate it for various reasons. I will put in my two cents with regard to those not mentioned above. We love Star Wars because it's one of the greatest science fiction fantasy stories ever told. Its universe is as big - if not bigger - than LotR's. Sagas like that tend to surpass the notion of just being a movie or a book. And this is where it gets important: in our imagination, we live in that universe. We live in it by means of novels, comics and, not in the least, RPG’s and computer games. The last two in particular give us the ability of actually partaking in the Star Wars universe! And by taking part it that universe, we feel we become part of it and it becomes a part of us. We may even feel that the Star Wars universe is ours, if only for a bit. So, I think this is the main reason why we love it.

 

Now, you have to realize that, for years, we only had the original three movies, novels and games. So, in essence we had:

 

• The basic story: episodes IV - VI
• Imagination: the novelization
• Active partaking: games

The reason that the novelization qualifies as imagination is because, when you’re reading a book, you don’t see the pages and the letters in front of you any more but rather the worlds that are enclosed in those pages. So, in effect, we always had a very short basic storyline. However you look at it, we only had little factual, visual material, so we filled in a lot of blanks for ourselves with our mind’s eye. And the visual material we did have - games & comics - was either largely the same as the original movies or we could discard it and not play or read it if it wasn’t to our liking. Moreover, not reading novels and comics and not playing the games didn’t change the original story because everyone considered the original movies as the authentic, basic story.

 

Now with the prequels, a lot of that changes. First of all, we get a whole new score of visual material. Visual material that differs a lot from the original stuff because of new techniques and simply because there’s quite a long period of time between the original movies and the prequels. Our needs have changed and so has the market. The original Star Wars movies were – al three of them – without a doubt the best and grandest special FX movies made in their respective times. A Star Wars movie nowadays has to compete with stunts or special FX like in, for instance, Jurassic Park, Mission Impossible, The Fifth Element and Lord of the Rings. Not that these movies are in anyway comparable but they do give us a nice picture of what kind of visual standards we’re used to today. So, it’s only logical that GL goes for CG. Some of you argue that this makes the movie to cartoonesque but I bet a lot of you didn’t know that every single armored clone trooper in AotC was a computer-generated creation. Although this is quite a feat, we just aren’t as impressed with visuals as we used to be in the old Star Wars days.

 

Furthermore the prequels differ from all other Star Wars material (dated before the prequels were made): they tell us how the original three movies came to be (I realize that Calrissian and Solo stories can go back to as far as 10 yrs. before A New Hope but they don’t tell us how the main plot was shaped). And that is quite a thorough implication in the – our – Star Wars universe. All I knew about Luke’s father, for instance, was that he used to be a pilot in the Clone Wars. The rest I filled in myself. I never pictured Luke’s father, or rather, Vader as a nine year old boy or a teenager that misses his mommy. In fact, I bet few of us did. So what the prequels do is interfere with something we either had filled in ourselves or had left intently vague (I never once made a very clear and lucid picture of how Anakin had become Vader, the fact that Anakin had fallen to become Vader was enough for me). So, the point is that we might just feel that someone is interfering with the Star Wars universe the way we hoped it would be, had pictured it to be. And for that, we hate certain aspects about the prequels.

[Mad78]

I find that is very well resumed Scath.

[Barkoa]

Well, Scathane, I must concurr. We do love it for the imagination and the participation, and the reason I don't like some parts is always because GL doesn't do it in the way I imagine, or the best way I like. Kinda selfish, but you do feel like it's yours for a little while there!

[kazooki]

Okay, where to start.

 

IMO, the phantom menance and attack of the killer tom, I mean clones, were a couple of jokes in the highest degree. You really couldn't do much worse than what GL did. He completely ruined star wars. It's true. How many of you actually thing of star wars the same as you did pre phantom menace?

 

I used to read a ton of the books, I was a huge star wars fan, and then I saw the movie the phantom menance. Right from the start, something was wrong.

 

Those who read the books should know that lightsabers are only used when combat is upon them. Well, if you think back, the doors closed indicating to obi and jin that there was a trap. I didn't see anyone attacking them at that point, so why were those dudes igniting their lightsabers when there was no enemy in site? As soon as I saw their lightsabers, they looked way way different from the cool look of Lukes when he first got it from obi won on tattoine.

 

The biggest re asons I have been turned off the movies is because of all the contradictions, and far fetched coincidences Lucas was responsible for.

 

Ie: One of the novells I read, Luke was searching for his mother, and she was supposed to be of a variant power of the force called the white current. Well, when I found out Padme was going to be lukes mom, that just ruined the book didn't it?

 

How about the C3P0 series of protocol droids? I can't remember the sytems name, but that was a popular protocol series of droids being mass produced at this planet. It certainly didn't mention that a 5 year old named annie happened to be the arcitecht of the droid. Was lucas seriously trying to get me to believe that a 5 year old or so, was responsible for making c3po......did u guys see the mess of wires everytime 3p0 gets blown up? And Annie designed it? Ok Lucas, next.

 

Jar Jar....well...nuff said. While I was at the theatre the Tuesday night at midnight show of the first night of hte phantom menace....there was this guy who was laughing at everything Jar Jar binks was saying. To be straight with you all, I wanted to fight him on the spot.

 

Haydon the actor looks like this guy who used to date my sister, aka diaper rash, or screetch from saved by the bell.

 

Darth maul was a mute, when lord vader was a big player in the success of the movies.

 

I will continue but I'm being asked to work...can u believe that?

[Jahled]

Whilst I more or less agree with a number of your points, I must point out a few things.

 

Star Wars is essentially a children's movie. When I watched EP1 and Jar Jar did something that made me and the other die-hard adults cringe, most of the kids laughed... I would love to slowly lower JJB into a vat of acid headfirst after i've tortured him/it with a pair of pliars and some of my poetry, but when you see kids with JJB lunch boxes, ultimately you realize where GL is aiming his target audiance with things in the film.

 

The EU books. Personally I cringe whenever I lay eyes upon them these days, so in my personal opinion they are a poor source of quotation... Zahn wrote a pretty mean read concerning Thrawn, but things slid pretty much into the realm of the Jar Jar after then...

 

Ultimatly, upon reflection the prequals haven't been so bad imo, from what i've seen of EP3 it looks dark enough to send a shiver down the backs of small children...which is good!!

 

Oh...hello btw dude!

[Mad78]

Hi Welcome to the forums.

 

Lucas was aiming at his target public.

Andfrankly i don't think the prequels were THAT bad. The Ep I was far from being the best but Ep II rocked.

[AdmiralFishface]

I've thought a lot about just what it was that made me like the prequels less than the originals. The first consideration is obvious, but maybe there's more to it than that.

 

First consideration: Too childish. Yep, obviously. Three words: Jar Jar Binks. Such a character was never around in the originals, the closest was C-3PO, and he had an excellent counterpart in the cynical Han Solo. Jar Jar lacks such a counterpart, making him a clown, nothing more.

well, I could take the Gungans. I don't bother about their more-than unlikely victory over the battle droids.

But the droids themselves? Who made them the clowns that they are? Is anyone taking battle droids even remotely seriously? The droids were so stupid and non-threatening it made me wonder why they'd even need an army to stop them. And the 3PO-head-switching sequence made me want to slam my head against the nearest wall. And who designed the Neimodians anyway.

 

Then, the atmosphere. Well, that's a part of the above. Everything is colorful, bright, cheery. Silver starships with flowing lines cross the screen instead of bulky warships. None of the dark mood of the known films. And sure, why should there? The Republic is fine, no sign of Emperors, Dark Lords, civil wars and Doomsday Devices. Is the brighter atmosphere bad? No. Is it overdone? I think so. Lucas has lost his touch for the subtle in his CGing madness.

 

Another thing struck me today: The Jedi.

 

In the original trilogy, we ever only saw a handful of jedi. We actively follow two: The Light one and the Dark one. Everyone around Luke (except for his two mentors) were non-Jedi. They were warriors. They were normal people, making Luke stand out more. And while he progresses in his training, and eventually becomes a Jedi Knight, you see him distancing himself from his friends. In RotJ, even after he falied to fall for the dark side, there is something mysterious about him, and he is so much... cooler than the stupid farmboy he used to be.

 

In the prequels, what do we get? Anakin. Obi-Wan. Qui-Gonn. Mace Windu. Etc, etc. We see a whole lot of Jedi.

Why, of course. we follow Anakin. He grew up in a Jedi-rich environment. (except for Padme) This is fine. But: The people around him are not only Jedi, but they are also required to fulfill certain roles in the films. They carry jokes, they progress the plot. They are the ones the audience is invited to identify with now. We get a good insight of Obi-Wan's thinking during AotC. And Anakin's, too. The Jedi are no longer distanced. They are no longer mysterious, and so become a lot less fascinating.

 

My thoughts for today. If I made no sense, I blame it on my relative lack of sleep lately.

Good night.

[Jahled]

First consideration: Too childish. Yep, obviously. Three words: Jar Jar Binks. Such a character was never around in the originals, the closest was C-3PO, and he had an excellent counterpart in the cynical Han Solo. Jar Jar lacks such a counterpart, making him a clown, nothing more.

 

Brilliant point GL seems to have overlooked; but perhaps didn't realize in 1975...

 

But the droids themselves? Who made them the clowns that they are? Is anyone taking battle droids even remotely seriously? The droids were so stupid and non-threatening it made me wonder why they'd even need an army to stop them.

 

Given the scale of the battles, perhaps GL was worried about to much blood and gor....but perhaps not given the violence in AOTC... so i've not had enough sleep either...

 

 

Then, the atmosphere. Well, that's a part of the above. Everything is colorful, bright, cheery. Silver starships with flowing lines cross the screen instead of bulky warships. None of the dark mood of the known films. And sure, why should there? The Republic is fine, no sign of Emperors, Dark Lords, civil wars and Doomsday Devices. Is the brighter atmosphere bad? No. Is it overdone? I think so. Lucas has lost his touch for the subtle in his CGing madness.

 

Agree with this I do. I would have prefered a Bladerunner-type atmosphere; dark, wet, and forbodding about the uncertainty of a crumbling republic...

[teukros]

It's not just a simple matter of Old Republic = clean, shiney and new and Galactic Civil War = dirty, beat up and old. I can not look at CGI and not know that I am looking at CGI. The best example I can think of is Yoda. In The Empire Strikes Back, he was real. In the prequels, he's just a cartoon.

 

BTW does anyone else look at those battledroids' heads and think of hand lotion dispensers?

[Jahled]

It's not just a simple matter of Old Republic = clean, shiney and new and Galactic Civil War = dirty, beat up and old. I can not look at CGI and not know that I am looking at CGI. The best example I can think of is Yoda. In The Empire Strikes Back, he was real. In the prequels, he's just a cartoon.

 

BTW does anyone else look at those battledroids' heads and think of hand lotion dispensers?

 

Dude, everytime i'm in a public toilet these days it ends in violence.

[Stellar_Magic]

Hmm... I've got to agree that Episode I had a problem with being to childish, this is due to two major problems with the film, young Anakin and Jar Jar Binks.

 

Young Anakin Skywalker simply isn't believable, sure having a blessed figure in the story could work, but even Jesus didn't do anything until he was in his 30s. Anakin races Pods, flies a starfighter, and cries to his mummy, it simply doesn't add up.

 

Jar Jar Binks problems have already been analyzed, no counterpart, and very little usefulness in the story.

 

Now on to Episode II, a bit darker, good. Anakin's new portrayal as a teen was horrific, we still have George's classic problem of character development. Obi-wan's portrayal is improved but still not as good as the original. George's tragectory is upward, maybe, just maybe he'll get it right after all.

[Lord_La_forge]

Star Wars is essentially a children's movie.

 

That's utterly nonsense my friend!!

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?image=/holonet/newspics/lucasmickey.jpg

[Jahled]

Star Wars is essentially a children's movie.

 

That's utterly nonsense my friend!!

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?image=/holonet/newspics/lucasmickey.jpg

 

Well that confirms whose [parents] wallets he's got targeted for....

[Aenivae_Ikeda]

I know how Episode III can be saved! The most important thing for Lucas to do is to kill JAR JAR. In a painful and slow way that lasts for ten minutes or so. After that, he needs to have all the wookies kicking the shit out of the gungan army. Then when thats all said and done, BANG, out of no where a bunch of stardestroyers blow up naboo, with padme on it (Luke and Leia just barely escape on a lambada shuttle.) Then they need to have Vadar just doing what he does best. Ass kicking! First pick off the sissy Jedi counsel members (Plow Koone, the big headed guy. All the others.) all at the same time. Like have him throwing lightning and objects at them, while slicing em to bits. Next have a short battle sequence between him and Mace. Have a dramatic death (like just before vadar kills mace the whole scene cuts to TPM scene when maul kills qui-gon) and then it shows Obi-wan screaming in rage again. The two duke it out, vadar gets knocked into a pit of acid, and then the movie ends with Obi-wan reading a copy of "The Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy" which shows a page of how accomadating Tatooine can be.

THEN THE CREDITS. And as an extra it can show the gungans getting their shit ruined during the credits all over again.

[Aenivae_Ikeda]

Also Lucas needs to make it very clear that all of the technology from the old republic is destroyed during the clone wars, that way there is an explanation for why the prequels are clean and new, and the old movies are... old

[kazooki]

Where did I leave off....oh yes, the contradictions, the coincidences stuffed down my throat.

 

-An old sith beat up both Anikan (screetch) and then took on Yoda to a draw. YODA. What I really found retarded in that duel was when Yoda lifted some huge concrete pillar or something, and used the forced to move it and slam it against something while he was fighting hte dark jedi. I was always wondering why he didn't just land the thing on top of the dark jedi.......? To let him escape to cause trouble another day? Okkkkaayyyy.

 

-How about when Jar Jar was fighting in the battle droid vs gungan fight. It was just so .....gay like Taylor Cranston.

 

-How could Padme fall for a baby?

 

-How about R2D2 being a medal winner for the Naboo people? How come lucas had to attempt to tie everything from the old series, into the new one's? WHY? Why was 3po made by Darth Vader? Why was R2D2 hanging with lukes mom? What a conisidence eh? I mean, r2 was almost lile Lukes uncle or something. LOL how about Jega fett. Who named them? Why did lucas have to make like son like father. Just because Boba was called Boba, doesn't mean Lucas HAD to name his dad Jega or whatever (been a long time since I've watched the 1st and 2nd episodes...and I only watched them a couple times) his name was, close to Jega though. Why such a stupid name? Also, did anyone notice how Jega was kicking hte crap out of the jedi until Mace whooped hyim? No wonder the jedi got whooped, they can't even beat up non force users let alone sith.

 

Yes, indeed Lucas targeted kids. My question is why? Like someone said earlier, the originals were dark, desperate, sad, and dire. There was no moron like Jar jar in the 1st movies, the stormtroopers weren't a joke like the battle droids. (Roger Roger BAH) There was a lil humour sure, b ut it wasn't gay humour. Anakin as a teen was a bad tempered brat that had a temper tantrum on those sandmen.

 

Also, what was with the republic being represented by a majority of aliens? I mean, all I saw in the big international republic hearings were wookies and et phone homes. And the one in charge was a wookie. GIVE ME A BREAK.

 

 

I was about 8 when I had gone to the theatre to see return of the jedi. 1984 I believe. I was obviously younger for the 1 and 2nd movies and I loved them the way they were, without the gay humour , clowns and retarded far fetched things going on. (Midi Clorian count pfft). They didn't have to make it silly and immature then to be successful. And the people that made lucas's movies so great, are adults now, and yet he abandoned us. He didn't target those who made his flicks great, he turned his back and made a walt disney production for his kids. He tainted the movies with fake computer animated graphics from video games. You could see the signs coming when they edited the fight between solo and Gweedo. (btw, anyone know the relationship between solo and gweedo prior to that? It's kind of funny, Gweedo tried to steal solo's newly acquired Deck 2 power couplings for the falcon, which makes it a .5 hyperdrive, and the fastest hunk of junk int he galaxy).

 

There was no reason for lucas to target kids under 10 in these movies. The kids would have loved it if he targed it for a mature audience, like the master pieces that Peter Jackson did on the lord of the rings series. Absolutely fabulous movies, and taco bell was still promoting those for the kids. Not to mention that kids of today, after 10 years old would be branded the biggest losers in school if they went around saying they liked lucas's new movies. Kids of the 80's and 90's, people for that matter cheered for the good guy. Kids of today, cheer for the bad guy. So if people didn't want to admit before they liked starwars in the glory days, can u ever imagine them admitting it today to there friends at school? PLEASE LOL.

 

Lucas made these films for his kids period. And kids of today are more mature t han lucas is now. Kids like Grand theft auto, not Star wars pod racer.

 

I just had to add to that article some of my biggest beefs. I personally have not even purchased the dvd's of either phantom or attack of the clones. When I heard that name, aotc, i just thought of the attack of the killer tomatoes and i cringed...again. I will do as little as I can to support lucas. I just love playing his games now as they still rock.

 

Lucas should hire peter jackson to make shadows of the empire, and then the grand admiral thrawn series. Jackson would make us forget all about these hopeless movies, but I think he is our only hope.

 

::Takes deep breath:: Ready for diplomacy ! Later folks !

[Mad78]

You are being very hard here but let me try and answer on some of your points.

 

-Yoda was fighting Dooku. Dooku feeling he was loosing used the pillar to create a diversion. A giant pillar is a hard thing to control and move even for a Jedi master such as yoda

 

-I agree Jar jar wasn't very impressive

 

-When she fell for him he wasn't exactly a baby.

 

- R2D2 was a symbol of the first trilogy. Lucas fellt he had to put him in the prequels.

Boba's farther was named Jango. What is so horrid about that name?

Jango wasn't exactly a normal non-force user, he was an over equipped professional bounty hunter.

 

-About the aliens in the republic: Did you miss the sacene where you see all the representants of the republic

 

-I don't see why Lucas would not have to target kids. Its his choice after all. I enjoy the saga in any case. Its Lucas's choice.

 

- You did not purchase the dvd of Attack of the Clones just because of the abreviation of the name

[Trejiuvanat]

By baby I think he meant that Anakin (19yo) is even more of a whiner than Luke was in the OT.

 

The rough outline of the prequels isn't that bad, Anakin turns his back to the order for love, and becomes a tool for palpatine in his political quest. But it was the implementation of it that turned utterly wrong. The prequels lack the magic, and fantasy of the OT (midichlorians, etc). Lucas also went for another audience, and tried to approach them through foollish Jar-Jar jokes, and by taking in some of the more popular characters of the OT (Boba and Chewie).

 

As for being Lucas's saga I don't think that is completely true, after twenty years the original triloogy is as much of the fans as it is of Lucas. The kids of the late 70s and all the generations that only knew of the Original trilogy should have been Lucas target, they were the ones growing up loving Star Wars, and no in their twenties and thirties they are fierce fans of the saga, Lucas, he betrayed them. He did not look to tie both trilogies, and instead focused on a new 'fresh' story. He failed to unite both trilogies.

 

OT fans were always hoping that the prequels would depart from the OT. Many people were expecting to see Alderaan, Tarkin, etc playing an important role in the prequels. They were let down. Instead, Lucas focuses in reforming (deforming) the OT to fit the prequels.

 

The consequences are not visible now, but from here in two decades people will still talk about the original trilogy, their smart plot, their smart humor, whilst the prequel trilogy will most likely only be remembered as an accident in the history of moviemaking.