Fahrenheit 9/11, has any one seen it?

[NIIIC]

TF wrote:

Japan and Germany attacked with intent to conquer, not to thwart a dictator with nuclear weapons. Japan was feeling the squeeze on its oil supply. Who knows what Hitler was thinking?

 

Actually, if you read “Mein Kampfâ€

[Jahled]

Now just a question, with no back thoughts, those any one knows why America was attracted and not the other Western countries?

 

 

I suggest you get real and observe the world we all live in before you start mouthing off such lightwieght crap.

 

On what i've quoted you on, France was the subject of terrorist attacks on her subway. Lots of people died. Had you forgotten that?. That's why I have to endure lots of Islamic fascists preaching their filth in the UK. Cause France kicked them out. France is about the most hypacrytical nation in Europe. It had business interests in Iraq, and has them in Sudan where a population are being exterminated.

 

There's loads of oil in Sudan, and the French enjoy the benefits of Sudanese contracts. It kinda takes the edge of their moral humanitarian farce at the UN. With Russia, China and various Islamic countries they''re doing a good job of blocking attempts to bring Sudan to bear and stop the genocide in Dafur or however it's spelt.

 

Your little snowbound country is one of the worst contributor's to global ethics I can think of, with all your secret banks; enabling amongst others third-world rulers misruling their countries to steal and plunder what little they have into secret accounts. No wonder Hitler gave your lot a freehand, him and his Nazi fascist pals had to much to gain letting your banks on the loose.

 

Far more people have died in Sudan than Iraq, but I note an absense of 'anti-war' protesters shouting loudly on our capitals streets . Even less in Islamic counties.

 

Last note. Before you critise America to loudly, read the financial section of a serious newspaper to realize that Europe is ripping off the third world with much more bulk and pace than the United States.

 

That is of course if your attention span extends that far past what you want to see of the world.

 

Edit: Moderated by Jahled.

Edited August 30, 2004 by Jahled

[Trejiuvanat]

Last note. Before you critise America to loudly, read the financial section of a serious newspaper to realize that Europe is ripping off the third world with much more bulk and pace than the United States.

 

Depends on what region of the 3rd World you look at. Most Latin-America was historically ripped off by Europe, the 20th Century we've been ripped off by the U.S., my guess it's that the 21st will be ripped off by China... Oh well..

 

BTW, lower the tone guys. Or I will close this thread.

[Jahled]

BTW, lower the tone guys. Or I will close this thread.

 

Comment noted and acted upon. I moderated myself.

[NIIIC]

I know that, but did I critics the united states, no, I asked a question, a question that I am not able to answer to my self with a certain reason, because, I admit, I don't know enough about it. And that is why I am asking a question that might seem stupid and useless to you, but that doesn’t seem stupid to us.

 

About the Suisse Banks, we are the first to be annoyed by our banks, because they have got so much power in our country, that they are nearly our permanents directors. Our government can't do a thing with out there money and there support. The police (yes I know that Switzerland is quite low key on its own intern problem, but it doesn’t mean we don't have any. Because as you know, I suppose, our banks are a paradise for any guy who wants to hide some thing. Well, that means that these dealers must come to little Switzerland often. And that means that we find some times guys that have been stringed and delicately posed on the train tracks, and that we have to scrap them off the front of our speed trains. Now I know it is nothing compared to the US or other countries, but compared to its smallllll size and it 6 mio. inhabitants, it is largely enough. For our very little police.) can't investigate more that your countries can. But you will ask us why we vote to keep that damn law on the banks secrecy. One simple answer: they are our ONLY money makers and our ONLY defence, because I can tell you, our little army that counts maybe 250'000 guys that are not professional soldiers but are in military service won't resist very long against ANY kind of enemy. And as you said that is why Hitler didn’t attack us, two reasons:

first, it would have been a wais of ammunitions and time, meaning 2 DAYS maximum, because we still had old canons of the 18th century as the top of our arsenal. And we cooperated all ready entirely.

Second because who would be stupid enough to attack his own purse!

 

That is why we keep them, and I wish we will keep them until we find some thing else great and lucrative to do in Switzerland.

[Jahled]

Respect for the introspection!

[Barkoa]

Apparently a few people are giving GWB their votes and supporting him because of his 'success with the war on terrorism' !! I couldn't believe my ears! F 911 shows a more accurate side of things...

[NIIIC]

Sorry Jahled, I don't know why we always cross wires!

So Barkoa, you saw it, what did you think of it, as an American, do you think other Americans should see it, or do you think it is K**P? Was there many people in the cinema, and if yes what kind of people. Sorry if I am sort of bombarding you of questions, but I want to know which group of people go and see the film and which prefer not seeing it. Oh and because I suppose you live in the country, seeing as you are American, who do you think is going to be elected or re-elected. Kerry or Bush?

 

All of what I have just wrote is honest, there is no hypocrite ideas or any back thoughts about it. Just to avoid getting messed up with others.

 

Edited by NIIIC for easier understanding

Edited September 2, 2004 by NIIIC

[Jahled]

Sorry Jahled, I don't know why we always cross wires!

So you saw it, what did you think of it, as an American, do you think other Americans should see it, or do you think it is K**P? Was there many people in the cinema, and if yes what kind of people. Sorry if I am sort of bombarding you of questions, but I want to know which group of people go and see the film and which prefer not seeing it. Oh and because I suppose you live in the country, seeing as you are American, who do you think is going to be elected or re-elected. Kerry or Bush?

 

All of what I have just wrote is honest, there is no hypocrite ideas or any back thoughts about it. Just to avoid getting messed up with others.

 

Dude, I haven't seen it and have no desire to see it. I see no reason why I should. Here is some ranting I composed earlier, I hope it makes the world a happier and more fun place.

 

Emmm...well as far as the American ellection goes, I don't actually care that much anymore. I opposed the war in Iraq before it began because I was seriously cynical concerning the motives; ie:it's for the West's oil interests and not the genuine desire to remove an extremely foul and wicked regime which would have got my seal of approval. I am sick to death of having to share the planet with despots and tyrants, bullies and thugs, and would like to see armed removal of regimes in Syria (gassed their Kurds), North Korea (Stalist fascists), etc; even upto dealing with China who continue to occupy Tibet, trash it's resources and subsequently flood Bangladesh each year with ever worse flooding because they're cutting down to many trees in the Himalays upriver. Whilst I admit that China is somewhat unrealistic an achievable target, the underlying disgust at non-action against regimes like these from the International community makes me extremely cynical of anybody's motives, which is why I make a point of attacking anybody who gives North America and/or George Bush a hard time. The USA is simply not the grand-villen on the world's stage. Everybody is ripping off everybody it seems, our European business as if an artform.

 

Back in the eightees we were in the cold war against the communist block, who with some estimates got they're way through one hundred million human lives. No wonder the west let compliant middle-easten regimes alone! Twas a cold war! Sometimes you have to deal with evil to thwart evil. When the Soviet block at last collapsed the world re-adjusted itself in the 90's. No one could seriously expect attention to suddenly focus on the west's dodgy allies in places like the middle-east after such a short period of time.

 

It could be said North America was asleep when 9/11 happened. Apart from the odd outburst of insane extremist right wing lunitics taking out federal buildings and religious fruitcakes at Wako, there experience of terrorism was a pale shadow of what we in Europe have had to deal with over the decades. I, living in the UK, have had the threat of the IRA most of my life. The Italians and Germans have had the threat of various left-wing communists, the Spannish with ETA, the French with nationlists from Corsica; we as Europeans have experianced terrorism and perhaps have forgotten it's almost made us whiry of it. We cannot be surprised if what happened on 9/11 shook the USA awake. Largely they had no domestic experiance of such acts of terror, and certainly not on such a scale. And in anycase, 9/11 wasn't just an attack on America; it was an attack on the Western world; our democracy, our liberty, our freedom to discard or accept ideas and beliefs. Capitalism can't be blamed here either. Whilst there is a great deal of business acting in extremely questionable ways, that can't be pinned on America or Europe for that matter. And it certainly can't be pinned on George Bush's blazer exclusively either. He seems to represent a certain section of current American thinking that I personally disagree with on a great many issues, economically not least, but the response from the anti-war vein of thought has disgusted and moved me to distraction.

 

The demonization of George Bush as if all the world's current ills fall upon his sholders isn't just childish, it has in some ways hyjacked interlectual argument in opposing his present foreign policy; a policy I have had to largely now agree with in the wake of Iraq, given the reaction of those that oppose it; liberals and religious fascists. The civilized world had every right to remove the Taliban Islamic fascists from Afganistan. Simply sharing the soil of this planet with fascist scum like them is anfront to human dignity. People do not question confronting what the Nazi's got upto in Europe, or the Japanese in Asia. If it took a 9/11 for a docile international community to address these vermin, so be it. The Iraqi's had every opportunity to comply with the weapon inspector's requests and tried to prevent them at every opportunity. And this is where the real humanitarian hypocracy sets in. France and Russia; suddenly concerned about their precious Iraqi business contracts, make out doing nothing is the best course of action. Just like the present ethnic extermination in Sudan. Hypocritical scum they are! Perhaps the French are better at blowing up Greenpeace ships than engaging enemies that might fight back.

 

So Iraq is invaded and on the surface, conquered (despite the present chaos). What exactly is the difference in taking military action and conquering a country that had invaded foreign countries and because of it's prime resources, put the world's stockmarkets into chaos(ie:Kuwait, Iran), as we did in WW2? Oil is a realistic reason to wage war if one of the major suppliers to the world's economy isn't playing ball with the world's economies, trying to bully it's neighbors, and subsequently effecting the quality of my own personal life. I'm all for taking control, it's to precious a commidity to remain in the hands of such loose cannons. The world's economy needs stability in the matter given it's apparently enslaved so much by oil. If your disgusted by this statement(and paragraph) switch your monitor and PC off immediately, go to your household mains box and switch that off as well. If you're happy to spend the rest of your day in a tent in your garden counting the stars I will respect you. Most of us won't be.

 

The Arabic world has proved to be largely incapable of civilized conduct by even conservitive standards. The television footage of Arabic men chanting and beating their chests is enough to realize it is perhaps a region of the world still stuck in another era; let alone one I find it exceptable to share. Live and let live is one ideal I hold sacred. The problem is this is yet enough region of the world where this concept is alien. And it is producing fanatics so deluded that God is Islamic, and they're deluded course is somehow 'holy' they are prepared to do their very best to give the rest of world a painful time; and in the same belief 'to enter a martyr's heaven and enjoy pubescent virgins.' Emm. Give me a flame thrower.

 

So yes. I'm in favor of action against these people. Hard and lethal action. None of this can be blammed on action against the Taliban in Afganistan, or securing the world's oil interests in Iraq. 9/11 happened before. Bombs in France went off before. Innocent tourists were being murderdered in the Middle East. What's changed my perspective is that while I can perceive the grim reality of the world's economy, it seems a lot of people haven't, and yell loudly about 'moral standards' and 'ethics,' whilst forgetting their entire ways of life are interwoven in the shoddy and at times deeply murky stagger that to my mind seems to be capitalism.

 

I seem to be fortunate enough to express my views without any concern of punishment, however; which unfortunately seems to be the deal.

 

Bush or Kerry; I couldn't care less! It doesn't touch on the global subject.

 

Edit: Moscow school-hostage scenario; holy warriors eh?

[NIIIC]

Men that was relay some thing, what an analyze, impressive, I should give it, to my history teacher, an excellent resume of the last fifty years. I AM impressed.

 

 

 

Sorry Jahled, I don't know why we always cross wires!

So you saw it, what did you think of it, as an American, do you think other Americans should see it, or do you think it is K**P? Was there many people in the cinema, and if yes what kind of people. Sorry if I am sort of bombarding you of questions, but I want to know which group of people go and see the film and which prefer not seeing it. Oh and because I suppose you live in the country, seeing as you are American, who do you think is going to be elected or re-elected. Kerry or Bush?

 

All of what I have just wrote is honest, there is no hypocrite ideas or any back thoughts about it. Just to avoid getting messed up with others.

Dude, I haven't seen it and have no desire to see it. I see no reason why I should. Here is some ranting I composed earlier, I hope it makes the world a happier and more fun place.

 

But my last post was for Barkoa, but I forgot to say so, so Barkoa if you read this, could you answer to my last post?

 

Sorry again Jahled, but thanks any way for the enlightening.

[Trejiuvanat]

Just as a comment: Jahled's no U.S. American, he's a brit.

 

And a reminder: There's an entire continent called America, so everyone from Canada down to Chile are American, not just the overblown egos from the USA.

[Jahled]

So I am! I got so carried away ranting I forgot to point that out!

[NIIIC]

I know i already did the mistake, i was talking to Barkoa if you read what i said, but also as i said, i forgot to mention it in my text but i will edit it.

[Guest Scathane]

To begin with, this thread is just brilliant! Threads like this make our community a valuable one. So, my thoughts on the whole story then...

 

1. Why is it that every time there's a debate about Afghanistan and Iraq, everybody starts yapping about America's rep sheet? If there's anyone on these forums who comes from a country with a clean rep sheet, then, please, let him speak up! We all know that America's hands aren't clean but I also know that I can speak my mind and freely walk the streets in countries such as the US, whereas this may be a bit of a problem in Iran or North Korea. Personally, I feel assured that the Taliban regime and Saddam Hussein were brought down and I thank the US for doing the job.

 

2. Would everybody please stop calling Bush stupid! The man has a bachelor's degree from Yale and a master's degree from Harvard, for crying out loud! Feel free to disagree with the man and his viewpoints but by calling him stupid you don't do him justice.

 

3. You must admit that there is a muslim movement in this world that hates our western free world to its very core. And they are willing to kill for it, even if their victims are innocent civilians.

 

4. Lastly, Bin Laden has, on multiple occasions, announced that he felt that every American ought to be killed. I would like to see anyone's reaction if he had said that every ***insert your own nationality*** should be killed.

[NIIIC]

I admit an intervention was needed, but i don't accept a president declaring war on nonsense. All that stuff about secret mass destruction weapons and the link between Iraq and Bin Laden, because it is proven that that the Bush family was more a friend with the Laden's family than Saddam. When i mean nonsense, do you remember when there was that scandal about that rapport on the SMDWs in Iraq that was used by Blair’s government and later Bush's government to justify the war? But was in fact a thesis of a young university student, old of quite a few years (the thesis). And the low if not no response that the governments gave.

 

1. Why is it that every time there's a debate about Afghanistan and Iraq, everybody starts yapping about America's rep sheet? If there's anyone on these forums who comes from a country with a clean rep sheet, then, please, let him speak up! We all know that America's hands aren't clean but I also know that I can speak my mind and freely walk the streets in countries such as the US, whereas this may be a bit of a problem in Iran or North Korea. Personally, I feel assured that the Taliban regime and Saddam Hussein were brought down and I thank the US for doing the job.

 

I know no one that is clean, except the LINCHENSTEIN, a small country between Germany and Switzerland that recently gave nearly full power to there prince.

But you are true, and as i said, i live in Switzerland and the Swiss mistakes are far less mentioned in the press, but same for every country, newspapers and mostly TV news are often showing the mistakes of others but really there one country's mistakes. like for sport, in France, you just have news about the French ones, in the US, you just have about the US ones, and even less i must say, and i know, i have French TV her so i know how it is and i was in the US this year for the beginning of the games. And i noticed that there was a slightly better coverage in France. Not to mention the Swiss that ONLY show the 14 or so runners, but once they have all lost, well then there is noting to cover so they get more general. But all of that to say that we should do an other thread about other countries, and i will join in as soon as i can.

 

But you didn’t say if you have seen the movie Fahrenheit 9/11?

[Guest Scathane]

O sorry, no I haven't seen it yet but I will as soon as it gets out on video...

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I can't think of a rap-sheet that Canada would have, but perhaps some one can think of something?

[Jahled]

I admit an intervention was needed, but i don't accept a president declaring war on nonsense. All that stuff about secret mass destruction weapons and the link between Iraq and Bin Laden, because it is proven that that the Bush family was more a friend with the Laden's family than Saddam. When i mean nonsense, do you remember when there was that scandal about that rapport on the SMDWs in Iraq that was used by Blair’s government and later Bush's government to justify the war? But was in fact a thesis of a young university student, old of quite a few years (the thesis). And the low if not no response that the governments gave.

 

1. Why is it that every time there's a debate about Afghanistan and Iraq, everybody starts yapping about America's rep sheet? If there's anyone on these forums who comes from a country with a clean rep sheet, then, please, let him speak up! We all know that America's hands aren't clean but I also know that I can speak my mind and freely walk the streets in countries such as the US, whereas this may be a bit of a problem in Iran or North Korea. Personally, I feel assured that the Taliban regime and Saddam Hussein were brought down and I thank the US for doing the job.

 

I know no one that is clean, except the LINCHENSTEIN, a small country between Germany and Switzerland that recently gave nearly full power to there prince.

But you are true, and as i said, i live in Switzerland and the Swiss mistakes are far less mentioned in the press, but same for every country, newspapers and mostly TV news are often showing the mistakes of others but really there one country's mistakes. like for sport, in France, you just have news about the French ones, in the US, you just have about the US ones, and even less i must say, and i know, i have French TV her so i know how it is and i was in the US this year for the beginning of the games. And i noticed that there was a slightly better coverage in France. Not to mention the Swiss that ONLY show the 14 or so runners, but once they have all lost, well then there is noting to cover so they get more general. But all of that to say that we should do an other thread about other countries, and i will join in as soon as i can.

 

But you didn’t say if you have seen the movie Fahrenheit 9/11?

 

God damn it NIIC! Why does it always seem i'm poking you in the ribs? Not to be taken in person dude... buutttt....

 

LINCHENSTEIN!?! You have got to be kidding me right? This is one of the richest little havens on the planet, and for a rather obvious reason! You do not honestly expect what is essentially a city-state to generate so much capital in it's own business it can safely be rated as one of the wealthiest places on earth? Does the newsagent on every corner generate that much capital? Linchenstein is populated by people. Extremely rich people who obviously own a great deal of shares in business elsewhere.

 

What's the difference between a state popluated by people who benefit economically from industry elsewhere in the world and another state; such as the USA, UK, or France, where people do as well? Not alot other than the larger states have the military clout to protect their economic investments, where as people in LINCHENSTEIN can use their money to influence theirs.

 

Not a lot of moral difference dude.

 

Unless your investment is treating people fairly and with respect in third world factories, it doesn't matter where your sat enjoying the benefits. It's either right of wrong, and nationality doesn't really come into it. *

 

*Personal view obviously.

[Guest Scathane]

I can't think of a rap-sheet that Canada would have, but perhaps some one can think of something?

You really think that your country didn't get some blood on its hands throughout history?

 

God damn it NIIC! Why does it always seem i'm poking you in the ribs? Not to be taken in person dude... buutttt....

 

LINCHENSTEIN!?! You have got to be kidding me right? This is one of the richest little havens on the planet, and for a rather obvious reason! You do not honestly expect what is essentially a city-state to generate so much capital in it's own business it can safely be rated as one of the wealthiest places on earth? Does the newsagent on every corner generate that much capital? Linchenstein is populated by people. Extremely rich people who obviously own a great deal of shares in business elsewhere.

 

What's the difference between a state popluated by people who benefit economically from industry elsewhere in the world and another state; such as the USA, UK, or France, where people do as well? Not alot other than the larger states have the military clout to protect their economic investments, where as people in LINCHENSTEIN can use their money to influence theirs.

 

Not a lot of moral difference dude.

 

Unless your investment is treating people fairly and with respect in third world factories, it doesn't matter where your sat enjoying the benefits. It's either right of wrong, and nationality doesn't really come into it. *

 

*Personal view obviously.

You must admit that he's got a point, N3C...

[NIIIC]

Yes but the government isn't for much. But i accord that i said a mistake. But I’ve found some Vatican and Encore (or Endore), it is between Fr and Spain.

 

I said before:

 

All that stuff about secret mass destruction weapons and the link between Iraq and Bin Laden, because it is proven that that the Bush family was more a friend with the Laden’s family than Saddam.

 

To give more validity to my comment, i just want to say that Bin Laden is Shiite and Saddam is Bassist, and that Saddam regime, so Bassist were oppressing the Shiite group.